My Swing (Jetfan1983)

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Following your swing thread, Mike, I noticed my left arm is too far in at A5, but since i'm not close to a scratch golfer, thats probably not an issue right now. But I do notice it...

Yeah left arm stays in a bit, elbows separate, shaft gets steep.  Can still play good golf from where you are though.  Wouldn't say this is your priority right now.  Priority imo is the right foot flare.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

PS- That face on picture of Mike Bennett in your post above? I had no idea you could play a long iron that far back... but sure enough, he was doing it all week long last week. As long as the face-path relationship is healthy, it works great. I dunno, I thought that was really interesting. Really high push draws with a 4-iron that far back. Enlightening stuff. OK I'm rambling.

Yeah you mentioned MB so I posted a pic.  He knows how make the adjustments for that shot at set-up and he early extends a bit (shhh don't tell anyone lol), but very impressive in demonstrations.  Great backswing.

[JetFan1983]

Thanks, Mike. It makes sense that I'm slightly too steep as my divots get really deep on a poor swing. I get away with it usually, but when I do, it turns my 8-iron into a 140 yard club instead of the 165 club it is when I make a good swing.

I removed a significant amount of feet flare out yesterday. I was down to about only 15 degrees worth. Then I continued my work on steady head, a more rotary downswing, and feeling armpit pressure at A2 so I could have a better fold rate of the trail arm. I jumped from piece to piece hitting 10 or so balls at half speed before moving to the next above issue.

However, something happened yesterday that derailed my practice, and it correlated with our usual discussions here of the ball flight laws and the correct biomechanical movements in the swing.

This post here is more of a blog thing today, but I wanted to hash out this idea here, in words, for my own benefit down the road.

Mike wrote this comment on the newest Ballflight laws discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts on this here because I get off-topic, and ultimately, this comment has more to do with my own golf game than anything else.

Originally Posted by mvmac

From my experience more beginners get it than golfers that have been playing a number of years.

I would agree. Their mentality is different. The idea that club face angle controls direction is simple and fairly obvious to them when you say this. In my experience, when I tell beginner friends the ball flight laws, they have every time said, "yea, obviously, bro... why don't you tell me something a 6 year old doesn't already know? Because I keep topping this stupid thing." Maybe I have smart friends, but I find these kinds of responses from them intriguing based on all the contention this subject has brought up in the past.

I think though that I've come to the conclusion that I will no longer attempt to engage the other side in debate in person, even if I am friends with that person. Case in point, just yesterday I had a long discussion with a former D1 golfer, now club fitter, who disagreed with basically everything I believe in the golf swing: He didn't know the ball flight laws, hated what Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer teach, refused to read their book, kept telling me I will never play good golf if I keep straightening my trail knee on the backswing, kept telling me to stop trying to keep my head stable and that was a waste of time (even though I clearly early extend), and that in just two weeks with him, I would be shooting low 70s from the tips with him (7000 yards or so).

This is someone I have practiced with often lately, as well as many, many mini-tour pros -- a group of guys who are all friends. As +3, +4 and +5 golfers, I've quickly learned that discussion about the golf swing is not an option, so I never bring it up. I am not as good as they are, nor will I ever be. But the real challenge for me is now deflecting their suggestions over where I am going wrong in the way I practice and play. They initiated a mechanics related conversation, and I indulged. For a few hours afterwards, I regretted opening my mouth, but now, I hope it has made me a stronger person.

Its easy through the internet to deflect naysaying opinions that you know in your heart to be incorrect. But in person, this can be challenging, especially if you've become friendly and gotten to know a lot of people like this. And especially if the people you are debating are just one notch below world class in ability.

My practice yesterday was derailed only after hitting balls for 30 minutes, where I ended up in a discussion with some truly gifted players about various mechanics about the swing. Simply put, they did not like at all what I was working on, and wanted to stop me from continuing to do so: 1) turn around a braced right left. Do not let the trail knee straighten. If you do that, you will fix your head movement and be able to hit the ball farther (which isn't a problem I have anyway, but I certainly do not hit it as far as they do). 2) The counter weight in your Edel putter sucks and gives you no feel. Get rid of it. 3) Do this drill (I won't name it, but it had absolutely nothing to do with any of my swing flaws) because we all do it and we hit the ball great (it was a takeaway drill designed to make me cock my wrists less and have more speed in my backswing).

This conversation lasted literally over an hour. I lost track of time it went on for so long. These guys are so ridiculously sick at golf, former D1 guys who played at 1st stage and 2nd stage at Q-School, that it was difficult for me -- based on my inferior level of golf -- to debate them on these issues of ball flight and mechanics. I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt my confidence when they said everything I was working on was hurting my game, that I'd never play good golf doing this stuff, and that they were starting to think I was crazy. One guy even said -- I shit you not -- that I practiced these things because I didn't want to play good -- that I wanted to fail out on the course.

This comment astounded me and somewhat rattled me for the rest of the day, as I went about what I was doing anyway and continued my session... but ultimately, they had gotten in my head, and I had difficulty focusing on what I was trying to do. I proceeded to hit the ball poorly with my long clubs for the rest of the day, early extending and hitting a huge block-slice for over 50% of my swings. I knew my head was coming off the wall, but I just couldn't focus anymore.

When I got home, I told myself that today was really the first time I was ever presented with an in-person situation (not an internet one) where my belief system was vehemently attacked by a group of very strong players. I'm friendly with these guys, and I play sometimes with them, so that made it all the more rattling. I told myself that going forward I would have to stick to my beliefs at all costs. That I couldn't even hit the ball before learning any of this S&T;, 5SK related stuff. That it was more important now than ever to stay the course and keep grinding.

Its hard to put into words, but I realized last night that when playing and practicing, I have to stay as focused as possible on what I'm doing. There are just some things right now that I cannot stay open minded on, as I very often do. I have to firmly grasp onto what I believe and stick with it. And that also means keeping these ideas to myself and avoiding debating as it wasted so much valuable time. Yesterday's experience made me more of a believer in what I'm doing now more than ever. Now, I am not playing this game, or practicing the way I am to prove these mini-tour guys wrong about what they said. That mentality would be detrimental to my progress. I am solely doing this because I believe this is the best way for me to improve and that eventually I will play good golf.

Stay focused on what I'm doing. Be friendly with these guys, and others, but try as much as possible to avoid golf swing related conversations (which were not brought up by me BTW. I just shouldn't have indulged).

Believe in what you're doing. Keep practicing. Keep learning.

I needed to get that off my chest.

[mvmac]

Sorry to hear about all that.  I've certainly had my share of similar stories, as have others.  If you ever do get into a conversation about swing stuff, just ask questions and don't make statements.  You'll find they get stumped by the second or third question.  A lot of the swing ideas are just regurgitated things you'll find in the golf mags.  No one thinks conceptually about golf.  Why does loading into your right create more power?  Why do you want to turn the shoulders level?  Why do we want to restrict our hip turn?  How does rotating our forearms make the ball draw?  Or like you said, just stay out of it lol

Just recently a pro at out club (I don't teach there) took a video of my son and did a little analysis.  My son wasn't looking for any instruction, he's just friendly with everyone.  Basically the instructor said he loves everything he's doing except needs a straighter back at set-up.  The whole stick the butt out, chest puffed out.  The guy said will help him turn his shoulders more.  If anything my son turns his shoulder too much.  My son was really frustrated because it put him in an awkward position, does he just say thanks and does what he knows is right, does he go over the 5-6 reasons you should have curvature in a golf posture?  Obviously the right answer is to just down play it, either say nothing or something like, "This posture helps me see the ball better".

The advice the instructor gave him was just advice for advice sake.  Nothing to do with helping my son hit it better.  Again, not thinking conceptually about the swing.

[golfballs01]

I'm not sure how long you've been playing, or where you were before you received help. What I see though looks pretty good. I've taught thousands of students and the two main things that individuals struggle with the most is (1) taking a divot, where they are trying to protect their club, their hands, and even the ground itself. By nature, they feel that they need to help the ball into the air, so they scoop or spoon it. By doing this, they don't compress the ball. From what I see in this video, you do quite well. (2) They don't get completely forward in the finish. In otherwords, they don't completely committ to the shot. They seem to try to stop the club after impact, which requires deceleration through the shot, robbing them of the full potential of the ball striking. You seem to get through the shot completely. Someone gave you good instructions. As a suggestion, I would recommend, trying a coup[le waggles prior to beginning the takeaway. This will not only remove the tension from the hands and forearms, it will reassure the hands that the grip is comfortable and the dependancy is on the correct fingers. Basically, the grip is a 3-2 combination. The forward hand is the three finger portion which include the middle finger, next to pinkie, and pinkie finger itself. Those are the controlling fingers of the forward hand. They are also the first to take the grip. Then the two fingers of the rear hand would be the middle and next to pinkey fingers. If you take the club in each hand independently, using just those fingers, you'll get the feeling of the correct grip. Be sure that the club is in the fingers and not in the palm. This makes it easy to release the club in a natural motion. If you can get your hands on the Ben Hogan book, (FIVE LESSONS), you'll see a great demonstration of this. When the club is in the fingers, forward hand first, the hand will lay on the club with the thumb doun the shaft, slightly towards the rear hand. Then with the rear hand placed on the club in the two fingers mentioned, the rear palm will comfortably lay over the thumb of the forward hand, and it should fall righ on the lifeline of the rear hand. This will line the two Vs up and the hands will be aligned and not fight each other for direction when being released. It's like the hinges of a door. If they're not aligned, you can open the door but before long, the door casing will crack. You want the hands to work together. The reason I mentioned this is it appeared that the rear hand looked like it was trying to dominate in the swing. It also looked as though you didn't look relaxed. If the rear hand does dominate in the swing, the club reaches its apex, or lowest point in the swing behind the sternum or center core of the body. You want the apex to be at the forward armpit. This will promote a downward strike into the ball before taking the divot. Try to take this info into consideration and incorporate a waggle prior to taking the backswing. I think it will help.

Good Luck

Chris Warner

Master Teaching Professional

Certified Examiner

[golfballs01]

I completely agree with you on the cramming of advice. The problem with many instructors is that they're taught to position people in a mold or model, which the only way to be successful is to fit into the mold. I am a Master Teaching Professional myself, and have taught thousands of students over the last 40 years. I myself have taken bogus lessons, doing things wrong on purpose, just to see how the instructor spotted, and fixed the faults. My intentions were that if they had a better way than I did, I too would learn something. A better way! I was rather disappointed with the results. That's not to say that there aren't many awesome instructors though. Some individuals read material out of a book, then suddenly they're an expert. There's the cookie cutter mentality, and there's the realistic mentality. I believe in the latter of the two. I witnessed one student getting frustrated with his lesson, and the instructor was worse. It ended up with the instructor telling the student to keep their money and find another sport. Shortly after, I approached the individual, and he shared the problem with me. Come to find out, the student had a prior injury which prevented him from making certain motions. He was being asked to make moves that he couldn't make. After five minutes of talking and explaining a few basic fundamentals, we figured a way around the injury, and he was hitting the ball nicely. I believe that everyone deserves to enjoy the game and true teachers, instructors, and mentors should be skilled in recognizing the needs of people, and have the versatility to make things work.

Christopher Warner

Master Teaching Professional

Certified Examiner

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Sorry to hear about all that.  I've certainly had my share of similar stories, as have others.  If you ever do get into a conversation about swing stuff, just ask questions and don't make statements.  You'll find they get stumped by the second or third question.

Haha, I tried that approach, but it was always followed up with some kind of answer... That's why the conversation lasted so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

No one thinks conceptually about golf.  Why does loading into your right create more power?  Why do you want to turn the shoulders level?  Why do we want to restrict our hip turn?  How does rotating our forearms make the ball draw?  Or like you said, just stay out of it lol

Or when I was told to reduce my neck tilt. "Look at Adam Scott. His neck is tilted a lot more upward than you." "He changed that actually." "I haven't looked at his swing lately.... He did? Well, no matter, you should stand taller with your neck." "But I can't see the ball." Etc.

Honestly, I may over do the neck tilt thing anyway, and it is something I've thought about, but the change suggested to me went well into the not-enough-neck-tilt zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Just recently a pro at out club (I don't teach there) took a video of my son and did a little analysis.  My son wasn't looking for any instruction, he's just friendly with everyone.  Basically the instructor said he loves everything he's doing except needs a straighter back at set-up.  The whole stick the butt out, chest puffed out.  The guy said will help him turn his shoulders more.  If anything my son turns his shoulder too much.  My son was really frustrated because it put him in an awkward position, does he just say thanks and does what he knows is right, does he go over the 5-6 reasons you should have curvature in a golf posture?  Obviously the right answer is to just down play it, either say nothing or something like, "This posture helps me see the ball better".

The advice the instructor gave him was just advice for advice sake.  Nothing to do with helping my son hit it better.  Again, not thinking conceptually about the swing.

Yea, I too have an approachable personality. Possibly to a fault. But I certainly don't want to ruffle any feathers, especially when I see these guys literally every time I'm at the range because they literally hit balls every day, all day.

I too was getting suggestions on things that I already over-do. Like, "make a longer swing," for example. That recent video clip I made is of my "short swing." I already know that I need a much, much shorter backswing (and more arm bend at A2 would certainly help that). I was just getting tips that had helped them, with no understanding on their part that I have different problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

I'm not sure how long you've been playing, or where you were before you received help.

I started in May 2008, but was unable to play in 2009 and much of 2010 because of a golf related back injury. 2009 and 2010 were lost seasons and 2008 only consisted of playing a few times over the summer. I was utterly hooked of course, but was unable to play -- that's when I got really active on this forum, trying to absorb as much information as I could so I wouldn't injure my back again.

2011 was a good year, but I only played 30 times or so because of unrelated hand issues derived from CTS, which thankfully, I have learned how to manage. 2012 has really been my first true, dedicated season of golf and practicing, even though I have struggled with over-use injuries to my left hand, forearms, left elbow, left hip flexor, neck, and right foot. All those injuries were managed well, and I stretch every day (both dynamically and statically), and ice any nick at the first sign of anything.

For whatever reason, I am injury prone when it comes to golf, and learning how to stay healthy so I can keep hitting balls has been a challenge I am learning every day how to overcome. I've come a long way as I am healthy right now, and I hope to keep it that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

What I see though looks pretty good. I've taught thousands of students and the two main things that individuals struggle with the most is (1) taking a divot, where they are trying to protect their club, their hands, and even the ground itself. By nature, they feel that they need to help the ball into the air, so they scoop or spoon it. By doing this, they don't compress the ball. From what I see in this video, you do quite well.

Thanks for deciding to chime in here, Chuck. Yea, I have no problems taking a divot. Sometimes its too much of one, and sometimes there isn't one, but that obviously stems from not being able to control low point. Thankfully, weight shift has been fairly solidly ingrained in me now, but educated hands have not yet. My low point dispersion has dramatically improved though in the past year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

(2) They don't get completely forward in the finish. In otherwords, they don't completely committ to the shot. They seem to try to stop the club after impact, which requires deceleration through the shot, robbing them of the full potential of the ball striking. You seem to get through the shot completely. Someone gave you good instructions. As a suggestion, I would recommend, trying a coup[le waggles prior to beginning the takeaway. This will not only remove the tension from the hands and forearms, it will reassure the hands that the grip is comfortable and the dependancy is on the correct fingers.

Yea, in that recent swing clip, I am intentionally stopping my swing earlier in order to a) control what I'm doing prior to impact and b) (this is hard for me to describe) but gain more speed. Erik and Mike can probably better describe this, but controlling one's finish can contribute to a faster swing if done correctly.

And I actually do waggle the club, but I edited that out of the swing clip for the sake of the video being smaller for download purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

Basically, the grip is a 3-2 combination. The forward hand is the three finger portion which include the middle finger, next to pinkie, and pinkie finger itself. Those are the controlling fingers of the forward hand.

I agree. I could be wrong, but I agree. Honestly, I, like most amateurs, probably grip it too tightly. And I probably have too much tension in my swing overall. I'm hoping though that in time, these kinds of things will work themselves out, as I am constantly learning every time I go to the golf course. I do make notes in my notebooks to reduce tension when I remember to, or when I feel it creeping in.

And the more I play with others, especially great players, the more I am learning how to deal with that feeling of chemicals rushing into my brain that produce nerves. Its just something we all have to get used to eventually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

Then the two fingers of the rear hand would be the middle and next to pinkey fingers. If you take the club in each hand independently, using just those fingers, you'll get the feeling of the correct grip. Be sure that the club is in the fingers and not in the palm. This makes it easy to release the club in a natural motion.

So far, my grip has gone from weak (pre-lessons), to very strong (1st day of lessons), to strong. I haven't made a grip change in about a year, and so far, no instructor who has watched me swing has griped about my grip, and this includes a number of them -- close to 30 or 40 -- whom I've been lucky to meet in the past few months. And I do grip it in the fingers for sure -- except the putter of course, where I use the reverse overlap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

If you can get your hands on the Ben Hogan book, (FIVE LESSONS), you'll see a great demonstration of this. When the club is in the fingers, forward hand first, the hand will lay on the club with the thumb doun the shaft, slightly towards the rear hand. Then with the rear hand placed on the club in the two fingers mentioned, the rear palm will comfortably lay over the thumb of the forward hand, and it should fall righ on the lifeline of the rear hand. This will line the two Vs up and the hands will be aligned and not fight each other for direction when being released. It's like the hinges of a door. If they're not aligned, you can open the door but before long, the door casing will crack. You want the hands to work together. The reason I mentioned this is it appeared that the rear hand looked like it was trying to dominate in the swing.

I own and have read the book many times, yes. My grip is stronger than Hogan's because I've been taught to push-draw the ball.

My right hand does overtake the left at times, but when this happens, its usually related to my head "coming off the wall" on the downswing, and my body sensing that I will miss the ball if I don't extend the arc. If I time it, the ball is hooked, hit well, or pushed. If I don't time it, anything can happen -- but usually the result is fat or thin.

And a little palmar flexion or bowing of the lead wrist can often help me as well control the low point, but I only go to that feeling if my head is staying stable and I am hitting pushes that don't draw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

It also looked as though you didn't look relaxed.

Like I said, tension is something I do fight. I do need to relax a bit. That said, a disgusting player was manning the camera for me when I made that swing, and I was a little nervous hitting balls with him. He missed final stage of Q-School by a shot or two, and is easily the best player I've ever practiced with. He's friends with Ricky Fowler and Sara Brown from Big Break, and hits the ball ridiculously well.

He's the one who gave me that steady head drill -- where I have that alignment aid stuck in the ground pointing at my head. He said everyone thinks that he's just trying to keep the handle lower when doing it, but its to help him keep his head in place. If you dip forward or rise up, you can clearly see the stake getting closer or farther from your head. The same thing is true on the downswing if you swing slowly enough. He said Al Geiberger gave him that drill.

But sadly, this guy said he was leaving this range because he couldn't stand the other tour pros there -- for the same reason I'm starting to get annoyed. It's sad that such a good and smart player is leaving. I could've learned a lot from this guy. Oh well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

I completely agree with you on the cramming of advice. The problem with many instructors is that they're taught to position people in a mold or model, which the only way to be successful is to fit into the mold.

I guess it depends on the mold or model. I honestly don't mind being crammed with advice -- as long as its relevant advice to me. I welcome good information from anywhere I can get it.

I think Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer speak well on why certain models can work, as long as they presented in the correct way:

Quote:

Changing Your Swing

A lot is made of golfers changing their swings, especially successful ones. Jim McLean said this about Rickie Fowler, “I haven’t helped Rickie with his swing, but I offered him one bit of advice when I met him a couple of years ago. I told him to never, ever let anyone change his swing.” The question we pose is, “What constitutes a swing change?”  The fact is that golfers of all abilities routinely change their swings.  They experiment daily with different swing thoughts or procedures to addres s new problems or reoccurring errors. Does this qualify as a swing change?  If so, this process happens all the time, but is not always noticeable to anyone but the golfer or the closest observers.

In our world, form is function.  Therefore, the recommendations we make have specific functions.  In other words, if one is satisfied with the predictability in command over the ball, then one should keep doing the procedure they have adopted.  However, when one does need assistance, there should be some logical, systematic way for golfers to address the problems they are having.

Some like to make a big deal of whether they should or should not “convert” to the Stack & Tilt® swing, as if they are crossing over an imaginary line to the dark side.  The implication being that one must make some radical shift in one’s technique or understanding of the way they play golf. We say maybe, maybe not. It depends on your definition of what radical and the state of your game. For instance, would taking hand path inward a little more be radical?  The problem we see is that masses of golfers make the same errors over and over again and do not recognize the problem and, therefore, do not change their swing to alleviate the issues.  This is harmful in that it discourages the golfer from playing and practicing. We think learning and practicing golf is fun, not a burden.  Improving, whether at golf or in life, is fun and part of the spirit of the game, with the goal being to do a little better the next time.  Part of our success to the extent we have had lies in large part to the fact that players who are learning enjoy practicing and enjoy the process of getting better, therefore succeed.  A well known coach on the PGA Tour told a player who had won tournaments before that it would take 18 months to reconstruct their swing.  We do not operate that way.

The point of this is that we do not necessarily change everything about every student’s swing to fit some preconceived notion about the swing we may have. Steve Elkington made a comment about us saying, “Mike and Andy can fix most guys in two swings.” The point is that we do establish some order to the process and help players find a predictable pattern for playing golf, which ultimately takes less time.  Sometimes players have taken what they want from the system and move on. That is fine with us. There are many other models and capable instructors other than us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfballs01

I am a Master Teaching Professional myself, and have taught thousands of students over the last 40 years. I myself have taken bogus lessons, doing things wrong on purpose, just to see how the instructor spotted, and fixed the faults. My intentions were that if they had a better way than I did, I too would learn something. A better way! I was rather disappointed with the results. That's not to say that there aren't many awesome instructors though. Some individuals read material out of a book, then suddenly they're an expert. There's the cookie cutter mentality, and there's the realistic mentality. I believe in the latter of the two. I witnessed one student getting frustrated with his lesson, and the instructor was worse. It ended up with the instructor telling the student to keep their money and find another sport. Shortly after, I approached the individual, and he shared the problem with me. Come to find out, the student had a prior injury which prevented him from making certain motions. He was being asked to make moves that he couldn't make. After five minutes of talking and explaining a few basic fundamentals, we figured a way around the injury, and he was hitting the ball nicely. I believe that everyone deserves to enjoy the game and true teachers, instructors, and mentors should be skilled in recognizing the needs of people, and have the versatility to make things work.

Christopher Warner

Master Teaching Professional

Certified Examiner

Yea, bad lessons are brutal. I've been there.

If an instructor can get his student to hit the ball better, or understand the game better, and it shows results, then I don't care what method they use.

Getting someone to play better around an injury must be quite the challenge. Good work there, Chuck!

Thanks for replies, BTW.

[JetFan1983]

As requested, here is a normal speed video. I'm working on my right arm bend on the backswing, and you can see the process I'm going through to try to get it right. This has been a very difficult piece for me to work on, and I'm really struggling to stop my swing well before parallel. Towards the end of the session, I started to get it to where I wanted it, but boy was this tough work. Still, I'm having fun, and I really need to add a three-quarter swing to my game. I hit a lot of balls doing this very, very slowly, but this clip is of me doing it quickly.

The result landed about ten yards left of where I was aiming. So-so shot, but I'm not really caring where it goes.

I reduced the right foot flare out. I'm still going to continue to work on the same things going forward as well: more rotation, keep my head on the wall, my right arm fold rate, and learning a shorter swing. My right elbow positioning at A4 is still crappy, but I figure, one thing at a time, and I'll get to that in the future.

****

This is unrelated, but I thought it'd be fun to include this clip I got today too: It's Mike Bennett working with Joey Sindelar Jr. right next to me. It was a lot of fun observing the lesson, and then talking and hitting balls with him afterward. Really nice guy. He's on the Hooter's Tour now.

All three of these half-swings he made were absolutely crushed by the way.

[JetFan1983]

No new vids today, but I'm shifting my focus a bit on some pieces:

1) Backswing feels like it stops at A2.5. That actually gets me to where I want to be at A4 on video.

2) I'm working on my elbow positioning on the downswing: right elbow lower than the left, as per Mike's suggestion. 1) should help with that.

3) I'm actually working on raising the handle again and adding some palmar flexion. Surprising I know, but I'm working on taking some descent out of A6 to A7. Now that I'm rotating and extending at a much better rate, I can go back to these two pieces.

4) I'm feeling like my follow through is very short.

So ultimately, I'm making my swing more compact. And I also realized today that my arms are working terribly right now and are my biggest weakness -- as long as my head stays on the wall, of course, which it has been the past two sessions.

[JetFan1983]

Here's a video from yesterday. I'm hitting my 56 degree sand wedge and hit it to a foot from where I was aiming.

I think the rotation is better, the elbow positioning is better, and I really love the shorter swing. It's crazy I could not before yesterday stop my swing this short and still hit the ball. It's not ingrained yet so I have to keep working on it.

The shaft angle at A5 isn't as steep either.

My head came off the wall on my downswing, so I still need to work on that, but I'm making some progress. Right foot comes off the ground prematurely as well, but oh well.

I was swinging slowly and this shot only went about 65 yards, so I can't really do this at full speed yet. I'm just going to keep working on the stuff I wrote about yesterday for a bit and see where that goes.

[JetFan1983]

Head steadier, and backswing's nice and short.

I still need more pitch elbow, more butt tucking, and a less steep shaft on the downswing, as per Mvmac's suggestion, but I have to be honest, shortening my swing has completely changed my downswing for the worse. I've almost had to relearn everything to the point where the number three accumulator was kicking in so much I had to put a range basket to the right of the ball so I could hit from the inside again. Insane how enormous of a change just this piece alone has been.

I played 9 holes afterwards and shot a +3 39 from the black tees which are about 6500 yards over 18. 6/7 Fairways, 7/9 GIR. I hit two balls in the hazard: one off the tee and one on an approach shot from 130 yards out. Didn't make a putt, but I haven't practiced my short game in two weeks or something, so whatever, I deserve sucking at that.

Things are looking up. Good thing I love to practice. And thank god my head is staying on the mother****ing wall.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Head steadier, and backswing's nice and short.

I still need more pitch elbow, more butt tucking, and a less steep shaft on the downswing, as per Mvmac's suggestion, but I have to be honest, shortening my swing has completely changed my downswing for the worse. I've almost had to relearn everything to the point where the number three accumulator was kicking in so much I had to put a range basket to the right of the ball so I could hit from the inside again. Insane how enormous of a change just this piece alone has been.

I played 9 holes afterwards and shot a +3 39 from the black tees which are about 6500 yards over 18. 6/7 Fairways, 7/9 GIR. I hit two balls in the hazard: one off the tee and one on an approach shot from 130 yards out. Didn't make a putt, but I haven't practiced my short game in two weeks or something, so whatever, I deserve sucking at that.

Things are looking up. Good thing I love to practice. And thank god my head is staying on the mother****ing wall.

Looking pretty good, nice stats for that nine

[Bo the Golfer]

Swing looks great. Plan on really working on my swing in 2013 and this thread will be one I reference a lot!

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Looking pretty good, nice stats for that nine

Thanks, Mike. My motor patterns still aren't there yet, but I'll keep working at it.

***

I thought I'd throw up (no pun intended) some of my "old" swings on my thread just to show people how far I've come in the past 18 months or so:

This was when I was self-teaching Stack and Tilt lol. I took "steep shoulders" to a bit of an extreme hehe. You can see why keeping my head on the wall has taken a lot of practice to fix.

LOL, I think I was working on "straight arms" here haha.

PS- Yea... I have a pony-tail here. Nooooo I didn't wear that out in public. I just didn't want the hair getting in my face for the swing and couldn't find my hat

These two below were on my first day of lessons with Steve Sieracki in Mount Holly, NJ in the summer of 2011. I had read the S&T; book about 50-60 times at this point, watched the DVDs three or four times, and had read countless Erik posts, but was thoroughly frustrated by my fruitless attempts to self-teach. That said, you can see my setup is pretty decent (maybe too much weight on the heels), I have feet flare out, and I knew I was supposed to straighten my back leg on the backswing. I fixed some of my head dip, but it was still there.

I've come a decent ways so far. High five to me.

Originally Posted by Bo the Golfer

Swing looks great. Plan on really working on my swing in 2013 and this thread will be one I reference a lot!

Thanks! That's really nice of you say! I'll try to be as informative as I can on the pieces I'm working on and why. Changing habits is really hard in my experience, and I always start by making really small quarter swings. Sometimes I'll have to swing as much as 18 inches back and only 6 inches through to try to get the basis of something. It's grueling and humbling work at times, and I look like an idiot on the range, but it does work.

I'll shoot a face-on clip for next time.

[jd924]

Keeping the head on the wall is something I have trouble with, what has helped you finally keep it there?

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by jd924

Keeping the head on the wall is something I have trouble with, what has helped you finally keep it there?

The first thing I did was to just put my head up against a wall in my apartment and then making a swing without a club in my hand. It felt completely weird and totally wrong. It was a totally foreign feeling. I did this for a while at night when I was bored. Then I would step away and try to do it without my head against the wall, and I would look up into a full length mirror and see if I was keeping my head still.

On the range, however, none of this wall work translated. I still made the same annoying swing. I learned that on my backswing I was "adding too much left side tilt," so the feeling for me was to feel like my head was going upwards on the backswing -- or "lifting up." I used a camera to film both practice and actual swings to see if this was working. It took time but eventually, the head movement became less and less and less.

The downswing head movement was difficult to fix too. My head moved upwards and away from the ball, so, going along with what I was working on with my backswing, the feeling here for me was the exact opposite: I wanted to feel like my head was dipping downwards towards the golf ball. This didn't always work, so I returned to studying the spinal positions and the correct rotary rates of a good downswing. I spoke to really knowledgable instructors on this subject, most notably of course being Mike Bennett.

When you take S&T; lessons, they almost always start off all high handicappers with drills to increase their extension and decrease rotation. Very few high handicappers need to rotate more. For months I did extension drills. This further contributed to my head raising problem, which already existed in my natural swing anyway. The first fix for me was learning I was supposed to rotate more on the downswing (a somewhat rare problem for a mid-capper) and that was the first step towards fixing it. I began to flex and extend at a better rate.

My head still came up though (and still does if I don't pay attention to it and work at it). I met a mini-tour pro at the range who was also working with Bennett, and he asked me what I was working on. When I told him steady head, he gave me a drill that Al Geiberger gave him to use to monitor head movement.

We stuck an alignment stick into the ground and pointed it right at my head. During both my backswing and downswing I could sense the stick getting closer or farther away from me when I swung. This is especially effective when hitting only half and quarter swing (and I recommend starting there when working on anything), and less effective when doing so at full speed. That's why in some of my swing videos you'll see me hitting a ball with an alignment stick stuck in the ground like this.

During lessons, Steve Sieracki would often put a club shaft against my head -- or even hold my head in place -- when I made swings.

And a lot of this work was done on my own with just me and my camera. I would make a swing and then run to check on the camera if my head moved. If it did, I increased the feel of dipping my head downward. If it still came up, I increased that feel even more. I did this doing half swings. I hit a lot of balls doing this.

I purchased analyzr from Erik and, at night, I would upload my swings and compare them with each other. I have a big library on my computer of many, many swings I've made over the past two seasons. I would draw lines and could exactly track my progress to the very degree in terms of how much of the problem I was fixing.

Eventually, I nailed down the correct feel. It takes time. This problem was something I hated to work on because I could never get it right. One day I just simply had enough and told myself I was not going to work on anything else until I fixed this. I didn't care if I chunked, topped or thinned balls all day and looked like a 36 on the range. I was going to keep my head still throughout the swing. It was humbling work, and I actually plan on continuing to work on it tomorrow.

So I guess if you wanted to simplify what I'm saying here, then it's to find out what you are doing wrong -- and then "feel" the exact opposite of what you are doing.

There is careful study and education that goes on here as well. For example, the guy whose head moves up and away from the ball on the backswing needs to understand that he has to turn his shoulders in a circle around a fixed center -- steeper shoulders -- and probably needs to feel like his head is moving downward. He might need to know the reasons why the head is moving the way it is before proceeding -- then again, he might not. We're all different.

The tools I used though -- to sum up -- were careful study, camera work, conversations with good instructors, and hitting a ton of balls using quarter and half swings. There are a few ways to "fake" a steady head, so I made extra sure I knew how this move had to correspond with other pieces in the golf swing in order to be within the realm of "correct." I continued to use analyzr by comparing a lot of my geometry with PGA Tour pros to further understand where the limits were with this.

Try to understand your issue and then work on fixing it with slower, shorter swings. Monitor everything with a camera and increase your feel if its still not changing. Keep increasing it until the picture changes.

[jd924]

Thanks this seems very similar to my problem. I dipped for a while on my backswing and I finally have that down to the point where I dont do it anymore. The feel was moving away and up and I did this by video. I kind of figured constant analysis is what it would it take to attack this problem but thank you for reassuring me that it can be done.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by jd924

Thanks this seems very similar to my problem. I dipped for a while on my backswing and I finally have that down to the point where I dont do it anymore. The feel was moving away and up and I did this by video. I kind of figured constant analysis is what it would it take to attack this problem but thank you for reassuring me that it can be done.

You can definitely do it, man. There's no question about that.

I checked out your swing thread and saw you are working with an evolvr instructor. Smart move. In a perfect world, they'd be right there next to you on the range helping you, but oh well. Since they aren't there with you, share your frustrations and questions with them. Don't be a closed book. Let them know what you are attempting to do or feel. Let them know when you are lost. And also remember just how important it is to slow down and make smaller swings to try to fix things. Unwanted head movement is the result of other issues, and its important to understand what those problems are.

Mike wants you to work on your right foot banking on its instep before rising up (something I need to go back to working on soon myself). I had trouble with this too and flaring my feet out and adding banking my lead foot onto its outstep really helped me bank my right foot correctly. It really facilitates hip slide and better lower body sequencing. Film yourself doing that without a club and see what it looks like.

I also worked on increasing pressure with my front foot. I did this on my backswing -- monitoring how it looked with a camera -- and this was also huge in learning how to hip slide. Front foot pressure on the downswing is key, and increasing it on the backswing really helped me with that. I was extremely well primed for increasing the pressure there even more on my downswing.

After a while, it'll just happen naturally and you can do less of it on the backswing -- at least in my experience. I don't really think about it much anymore.

Remember, you gotta make the picture change. And you gotta know what you want the picture to look like.

[JetFan1983]

I double checked this with about 20-25 pro swings I have on my computer and everyone shallows out their downswing with better elbow positioning than me. Red line is the shaft angle at A3. Yellow line is the shaft angle at A5. This Sergio swing seems to be the only high lofted wedge shot I have of a pro right now (I'm hitting a 56 degree here), but here's a few more pros doing this just to further illustrate this point -- take note of the elbow positioning compared to me (hint: mine's higher).

OK, so Rickie Fowler is kind of a ridiculous example because of his backswing motion, but whatever . All of their downswings are shallower than their backswings though.

I'm going to work on getting my yellow line below my red. I'll do this by improving elbow positioning at A5, but I also thought it might work if I also tried to feel like I actually was shallowing out the shaft by counter rotating my left forearm at A4.1 or so a bit. The latter would be more of a "feeling" for me, but it seems to work when I do it in my living room just now.

If you guys disagree with how I plan on proceeding here to fix this, please chime in, but I'll give this a try the next time I practice. I've been reading up on this from Erik's original elbow positioning thread, and this plan I have looks to check out okay, but I just want to make sure I'm going about this correctly. Again, the goal here is to improve elbow positioning -- and a shallower shaft will be the result of that -- but I see no harm is actually "feeling" the shallowing move if it changes the picture on my camera

Thanks, guys. Here's the original thread on Elbow Positioning and its Effects on the Downswing to those who haven't learned about this yet and would like to.