Elbow Position and Its Effects on the Downswing

Take a look at these P5 (left arm horizontal, downswing) positions. The left is bad, the right is good. I've subtly marked this with RED for bad and GREEN for good. Yeah, I'm feeling a bit sarcastic today, too. ;-)

Anyway, if we had to give these two elbow positions TGM terms, the left would be more of a punch elbow position and the right would be more of a pitch elbow position. I'm striving for something more like what you see on the right, but it's not quite all the way to pitch, so I call it "pinch" elbow.

Now, the swing on the left is the result of a few things (backswing gets a little long, clubhead goes from slightly under plane and tips out to go slightly over the plane), but the focus for me is on the elbow position.

First, a detailed list of the differences.

1. On the left, note the relative height of the right elbow as shown by the two-headed arrow. On the right, this gap between the right elbow and the belt is almost non-existent.
2. Note the elbow positions relative to each other. On the left, the right elbow is still higher than the left elbow. On the right, the right elbow is lower than the left elbow.
3. Note the relative height of the right shoulder. This makes sense, of course, since our upper arm isn't exactly going to expand or contract - so if the right elbow is higher, the right shoulder will stay higher.
4. Note the angle of the right upper arm - over 25° difference.
5. Most importantly, note the change in shaft plane. You've heard of keeping your elbow up in a baseball swing? Well, the dumbass on the left looks a lot more like he's playing baseball than golf.

Make no mistake about it - I've been able to play really good golf from the position on the left, just as I could play good golf from some so-ugly-you'll-vomit positions from a few years ago - but the motion on the right is much better.

Bonus question: what's the biggest (most important) difference I didn't mention in the list above? I'll tell you at the end. Think about it.

Now, there are a bunch of ways to feel this or fix this or get into this position. And, bear in mind, not everyone needs to get their right elbow lower or go "pitchier" in their motion. But if you do, try some of these feelings out to see if you can change the picture for the better:

1. Obviously, fixing your backswing is going to help. Though it was terrible advice for Ray Romano, Hank Haney made a big deal out of "loop it the other way." Think of Tiger Woods - steep backswing, shallow the club through the transition. Rickie Fowler, too. If you're coming in from under the plane and the club tips out, good luck - sometimes fixing the backswing will allow you to make a better downswing. Jim Furyk swing (I've previously employed this feeling too).
2. Squeeze the elbows together. In the left image, my right elbow is getting behind my body, but if I actively squeeze them together during the transition and first stages of the downswing, my right elbow will get more in front of my body (i.e. where my left elbow is).
3. Try to get your right elbow to your belly button in transition. You won't get anywhere close, but get it as close as you can.
4. Employ more right forearm fanning from P2.5 or so onward and don't let your right elbow get behind (or near) your shirt seam to begin with.
5. Point your watch (on the back of your left wrist) to the sky.
6. My favorite, because it works pretty well for me (came up with it on the golf course while practicing #2), is to feel like my right shoulder gets as far away from my right ear as possible starting at P3.8. Firmer wrists help - if the clubhead is flopping around it'll tend to tip out a little as the swing gets a bit sloppy-long. This works because, again, your upper arm doesn't collapse or expand, so if you drive the right shoulder down the elbow will go down as well.

There are just a few feelings. I can't give them all away! 

I hope this information helps you. I look forward to the discussion around this topic.

It occurs to me that I didn't really mention what was "wrong" with the position on the left. Basically, it's this: the hands and the clubhead are lined up too steep. One or both are thus going to be off-plane, and are going to require compensations of some kind to get the clubhead onto the ball.

That's all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh 

I have printed this list out and will take it to the range with me on Monday! ;-) I really like the idea of #2. I haven't had a lot of success with #1 and #5, and need to work on the firmer wrists in #6 for sure.

More tough love Philip: DO NOT DO THAT if you're not working on that piece right now. Stick to the program. It's customized to you, after all. You get no credit for skipping ahead. I saw your video… I know what you're supposed to be working on. This is not a cure-all, and it's something you only work on when it's the highest priority item on your list. Please, for your sake…

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh 

A drill I'm working on is putting an alignment stick in the ground at the same angle as my shaft at address and 3-4 feet to the right, so that when you are looking at your swing DTL the shaft of your club and the alignment stick look on top of each other (check out my avatar). The idea is to take the club back OVER the alignment stick and come back down UNDER it. It is a lot harder than it looks. I've topped loads and actually missed the ball a couple of times. I can't manage to get back under the stick... yet!

 

So that this doesn't turn into another "My Swing" thread, I'm putting what I have to say next in a spoiler. No quoting it - it's off topic.

 

 

More of Pharaoh's Personal Swing Advice ;-) (Click to show)

I'm not the biggest fan of that drill. I get what you're after, but be really, really careful. You don't want to learn to deliver the club from under the plane, and that problem can actually be tougher to solve than coming over it, particularly for better players (look at how long it took Tiger and how severe his practice moves are).

 

A pair of images. First, consider where Charlie's hands and clubhead are relative to your stick on the backswing and downswing:

 

 

 

Next, consider changing to this drill instead, which comes to me from Mike Bender via Dave. Put a traffic cone on your toe line and right near the hosel of the club. Your goal is to take the clubhead back outside of it (while taking the hands IN). If you roll or suck the clubhead inside, you'll hit the traffic cone. On the downswing you don't have to worry about hitting it because you'll have moved forward, will have more wrist cock/hinge, etc.

 

But do this drill in moderation. Work ONLY on what you're given in your customized evolvr stuff, dude. C'mon… ;-)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh 

If your hands are programmed to start your downswing, you'll come OTT before you even think about dropping your hands. You have to re-programme your hands by really exaggerating the movement. Right now, I feel a MASSIVE loop in my swing out then in, but am still coming OTT slightly- What I've noticed is that I get closer the more I tilt left in my backswing and slide my hips forward to start the downswing! ;-)

 

I don't like the word "dropping." I prefer to see a swing where your hands are "in the slot" at the top of the backswing. "Dropping" implies that you're above the slot somewhere, and energy is wasted in an "out of plane" motion to "drop" them into the slot. No thank you.

I don't personally feel that the hands do anything in the downswing, really. Granted, mine are fairly "educated" but still - your hands can only do "bad things" at the start of the downswing. The start down needs to be controlled by your legs and hips, and then your chest, and perhaps your shoulders or elbow for "feel". Not the hands.

That's why I talked about making a better backswing. It's easier to go steep to shallow than shallow to shallow. Why do you think Ryan Moore's swing or Rickie Fowler's swing almost look more "normal" than Matt Kuchar's swing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983 

Why exactly is it good to go from steep to shallow on the backswing and downswing? 

It's not good. It's just that what feels steep to shallow will probably be less shallow to steep. Ya feel me? ;-)

(You saw my Jim Furyk swing. At the time it felt like the club was straight up in the air on the backswing and horizontal on the downswing. How'd it actually look? :-D)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh 

I fully agree with you that getting the backswing right is important for a good downswing, but things can still go very wrong even if you are in the perfect top of the backswing position. If you have "educated" hands then you are lucky they simply move down into the correct position as your legs/hips initiate the downswing. I still maintain that poorly educated hands need educating even if it means educating them to do nothing.

FWIW when I talk about educated hands I'm talking about in the foot or two before and after impact, typically. I'm not talking about the start of the backswing or P4 or even really P6. More like P6.5 to P7.5.

Anyway, this thread isn't really about the hands, it's about elbow position.