Should the pros use local caddies?

[colin007]

Do you think the pros might be better served by using a local caddie who knows a course like Kiawah like the back of his hand? Especially on the greens, considering that they are apparently pretty flat and can be tough to read?

[Beachcomber]

No.  I'd rather have a guy who knows my game - and capabilities rather than have someone who knows the course.

For instance, I've played with caddies - that know the course very well.  And while that is great... It bugs me when a stranger (caddy) tells me I should be doing something that is far outside of my normal shot.  Especially if I'm playing well.  I don't want some strange caddy telling me I should try a shot I'm not comfortable with.... Like playing a 3W with a fade off of the tree 200yds down range.

If that isn't my stock shot (and a regular Caddy will know your stock shot)... I don't want the Caddy telling me to hit a shot I'm not comfortable hitting.  The last thing I need is some crazy swing thoughts in my head as I'm about to hit a pressure packed shot.... Like in a major.

[colin007]

Why can't the caddy just tell you the yardage and/or how long a shot plays and you decide?i would imagine that they know exactly how far you need to hit a particular shot, or a subtle read on the green?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by colin007

Do you think the pros might be better served by using a local caddie who knows a course like Kiawah like the back of his hand? Especially on the greens, considering that they are apparently pretty flat and can be tough to read?

So here's the deal...

I had a caddie at my round at the Ocean Course.

He was the worst caddie in the history of caddying. Well, he had to be close to it.

He had no clue what he was doing. And he'd been there three years. He couldn't read the greens, he couldn't club us, he couldn't even tell us which way the wind was blowing (hint: there aren't any real trees, so it doesn't swirl).

Does that answer the question? :)

http://thesandtrap.com/b/pga/a_vacation_on_kiawah_island

[Motley01]

Maybe sometimes. Some tour players go through caddies like stinky underwear.

And other players like Phil and Bones know each other so well, it would be stupid for Phil to get a local caddy. Can you imagine that conversation?

"Hey Bones",

"Ya Phil?" ,

"don't need ya this week for the PGA Championship, going with local caddy name is Harry."

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by colin007

Why can't the caddy just tell you the yardage and/or how long a shot plays and you decide?i would imagine that they know exactly how far you need to hit a particular shot, or a subtle read on the green?

That is what the tour caddies do.  They go out and map the course, and know pretty much any relevant distance you'd want during your round.  And the advantage of the tour caddy... They know you and your game.  A stranger (local caddy) - isn't going to have the same rapport.

[David in FL]

If they felt they would be better off with a local caddie, believe me, they'd have one.

[colin007]

I didn't realize that. I guess i thought the guys who have been at a course since the 20's or something would be more useful...

[clubchamp]

Go to a practice round early in the week and watch the amount of preparation that gets done. Focus on the caddys not the players I would be willing to bet after 3 or 4 days of preparing those caddies know almost everything a local knows possibly more based on what iacas said. Don't get me wrong some local caddies are probably great caddies but most couldn't handle a pga players bag. Plus outside of a few times a year the PGA plays the same courses so I don't think it would be beneficial to drop your everyday caddy for a local guy at the majors.

[x129]

How hard is to get a good read on the greens? I have to imagine that on any new course, the caddies go out, roll a dozen balls per green and (this is important and what very few of us do) make notes about the results.

I have to imagine the big value for a lot of the pros is not green/wind/distance stuff but having a guy that help keep your head screwed on right. A guy that doesn't know you is not going to know when to make a comment and when to shut up.

Originally Posted by colin007

Do you think the pros might be better served by using a local caddie who knows a course like Kiawah like the back of his hand? Especially on the greens, considering that they are apparently pretty flat and can be tough to read?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by x129

How hard is to get a good read on the greens? I have to imagine that on any new course, the caddies go out, roll a dozen balls per green and (this is important and what very few of us do) make notes about the results.

They'll do that, yes, but you haven't seen a green chart used by 99.9% of PGA Tour pros these days, have you? They've got arrows indicating slope direction (and often amount) every couple yards or so of the green.

For example:

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by x129

How hard is to get a good read on the greens? I have to imagine that on any new course, the caddies go out, roll a dozen balls per green and (this is important and what very few of us do) make notes about the results.

Exactly.   If one goes early in the morning on practice round days, you'll see caddies out there rolling balls across greens and making notes.   They'll also sometimes hire local caddies to go out with them and show them the nuances they might not otherwise pick up.     You'll also see the players rolling putts from a lot of different directions on the greens not to where the pin is on the practice round but to where they believe they will be on the tournament rounds.     These guys are professionals, and they'll pick up the critical aspects of reading the greens quickly.

Originally Posted by x129

I have to imagine the big value for a lot of the pros is not green/wind/distance stuff but having a guy that help keep your head screwed on right. A guy that doesn't know you is not going to know when to make a comment and when to shut up.

At tournament time, the player is out there on their own.   It's them against the course and the weather and 150+ other guys all wanting to beat each other's brains out on the course.    He doesn't have team mates to help support him, slap him on the butt and say "I've got your back".   He's standing alone in an island of green surrounded by thousands of fans watching his every move.    At tournament time, the biggest value to the player is having that one person standing beside him that's part of his team, helping him stay focused and in the moment.    The caddy knows his body language and knows when to try and slow the player down, or speed him up, or whatever necessary to help the player deal with the oppressive atmosphere of competitive golf.   The caddy's biggest contribution is to be that rock of stability in a day of chaos.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by iacas

They'll do that, yes, but you haven't seen a green chart used by 99.9% of PGA Tour pros these days, have you? They've got arrows indicating slope direction (and often amount) every couple yards or so of the green.

For example:

are the elevation lines drawn by someone else? What do the numbers represent? Inches? How do they go about finding all these breaks?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Paradox

are the elevation lines drawn by someone else? What do the numbers represent? Inches? How do they go about finding all these breaks?

I think that's an AimPoint produced chart so the numbers would be % slope.

They don't find the breaks. They buy them from someone who has found them. Many top-end courses have intricate maps of their greens. I know a guy who will map a set of 18 greens using several lasers mounted above the green at various angles to 1mm accuracy.

Those same machines are what are used during AimPoint on the TV coverage on Golf Channel.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Paradox

are the elevation lines drawn by someone else? What do the numbers represent? Inches? How do they go about finding all these breaks?

I believe the numbers on the image iacas posted is Slope.  I also believe the one that iacas has posted is a topography map which a course designer or architect issued as plans for the green.  The Caddy would get these maps for his player before the tournament - and then prepare them onto something that is more useful by the standard player.

Basically it is known as Green Mapping.

http://www.better-golf-by-putting-better.com/green-mapping-steps.html

Basically the Caddy would go out with a small device to obtain the slope readings in various portions of the green - where the pin placements have been known to be (from previous years competitions).

[WUTiger]

I walked a practice round at the 2004 Senior Open at Bellerive CC in St. Louis.

Even then the players had access to fairly elaborate sketch books of the holes. The more veteran caddies would point out things to the players after they finished the hole, and you'd see the players rolling balls from high to low, trying a chip shot with a PW and then an 8i, and all sorts of things. One guy was chipping with a 5W on most holes. Players also would hit short irons and partial wedges from possible lay-up points in case they put a drive into the treeline and had to punch out short.

The round took about 5 hours, but everyone inside the ropes was busy all the time.

Veteran caddies who carried at a prior tournament at a course pick up a lot, and with all the video fly-overs and computer mock-ups a caddie-player team can pick up a lot quickly. A pro's regular caddie doesn't have to know every shot on the course, just mainly the ones his player would likely have to hit (RE: player's course management style).

In the 1960s, PGA tour players would draw lots at a tournament course to see which local caddie they got. Not sure when "bring your own caddie" started.

[x129]

You can't be out there on your own if you have someone standing right next to you giving advice......

Originally Posted by Clambake

At tournament time, the player is out there on their own.   It's them against the course and the weather and 150+ other guys all wanting to beat each other's brains out on the course.    He doesn't have team mates to help support him, slap him on the butt and say "I've got your back".   He's standing alone in an island of green surrounded by thousands of fans watching his every move.    At tournament time, the biggest value to the player is having that one person standing beside him that's part of his team, helping him stay focused and in the moment.    The caddy knows his body language and knows when to try and slow the player down, or speed him up, or whatever necessary to help the player deal with the oppressive atmosphere of competitive golf.   The caddy's biggest contribution is to be that rock of stability in a day of chaos.

[David in FL]

They'll do that, yes, but you haven't seen a green chart used by 99.9% of PGA Tour pros these days, have you? They've got arrows indicating slope direction (and often amount) every couple yards or so of the green. For example: [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/57966/] [/URL]

That's a little topographical map of the green. I've never seen that before. VERY cool!