Confusing Local Drop Areas

[MEfree]

For handicap purposes, how should the local drop areas be played/scored?

Keystone Ranch and River courses have a number of "drop areas" that are identified with a sign that says "drop area" but are not discussed on the score card which says "Play is governed by the rules of golf as approved by the USGA and..."

On #6 at the River, the drop area sign is located on the fairway  closer to the green than the yellow stake water hazard you have to carry off the tee and behind and to the right of the lateral water hazard left of the fairway.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=keystone+river+course≪=39.601468,-105.984721&spn;=0.003633,0.008256&fb;=1≷=us&hq;=keystone+river+course&cid;=0,0,13240230494915743703&t;=h&z;=18&iwloc;=A

Much of the landing area on this hole is blind and there is long grass between the two hazards on the left and on the right there is scrub area where you usually, but not always find your ball.

Several weeks ago I played with the club champions who said that the drop area could be used for all lost balls that carry the initial water hazard meaning that you could use if for the lateral hazard on the left or the scrub area to the right.  I know that the drop areas are designed to speed up play, but this didn`t make a ton of sense to me from a rules perspective.

Today, after being 90+% certain that I hit my tee ball into the left lateral water hazard, I utilized the drop area at the encouragement of a playing partner and hit the ball onto the green and made the putt.  Had there not been a drop area, and I was "virtually certain" that my ball was in the lateral hazard, I would have had to take a drop in the rough to the left of where I actually dropped it.  Had I not been "virtually certain" that I was in the lateral water hazard, then I would be forced to go back to the tee.  Before dropping, I looked for my ball in the long grass leading into the hazard, but did not find it there or see it in the hazard.

At the turn, I went into the Pro Shop to ask what/where the drop area applied to and the two guys there said it was a local rule to speed up play, but that they were not certain how it worked.

After the round, I went back in and one of the original guys was there (I thought he was the general manager, but it looks like he is listed as the course Professional) along with another guy who offered the following:

1.  The drop area is a local rule to speed up play and is for the first water hazard but not the lateral hazard.

2.  Upon further discussion, he said the drop area could be used for the lateral hazard also.

3.  The use of the drop areas was not contemplated when the course was rated for handicap purposes.

4.  It would be useful if there was more documentation for the drop areas.

The first guy added that when CO Golf Association Tournaments are played at the course that they mark their own course and do not use the drop areas.

It seems to me, that the drop areas (here and on some other holes also) make the course play easier, so the course should have a different rating/slope depending on whether you are utilizing the drop areas or not.

How should I play this going forward?

For handicap purposes, what score did I make on the hole?

If I dropped correctly, the score would be 4, but if I should have played it as a lost ball as I was not "virtually certain" it was in the hazard, then I think I would need to replay the hole from the tee hitting 3.  As it is the #5 handicap hole, I think the score I would give myself is a 5 on the replay I didn`t make plus stroke and distance = 7.

[MEfree]

On the next hole, 7,https://maps.google.com/maps?q=keystone+river+course≪=39.600728,-105.991038&spn;=0.000908,0.002064&fb;=1≷=us&hq;=keystone+river+course&cid;=0,0,13240230494915743703&t;=h&z;=20&iwloc;=A

I proceed to hit a left to right ball into the hazard for the first time.  This hole has yellow stakes just in front of the women`s tees and then red stakes after you cross the bridge (on the green side of the river).  Initially, I think I crossed into the yellow staked water hazard just in front of the women`s tees and drop a ball onto the women`s tees and hit it just over the back of the green.  My playing companion says that I should be playing from the drop area.

Then, as I cross the bridge I see two red stakes about a foot apart and several more going up between the river and the green.  I end up finding my original ball about 6 feet inside the red stakes between the river and the right bunker just past pin high.  I realize that I must have exited the original yellow stakes water hazard and entered into the red stakes later hazard at some point but it is not clear to me at all where the yellow stake hazard ends and the red stakes hazard begins.  To me it looks like they have marked the tee side of the hazard with yellow stakes and the green side of the same hazard with red stakes.  I think have likely crossed the complete hazard and entered from the green side into the lateral hazard, but at the very least, I certainly exited the yellow hazard.

It is not at all clear to me where I should drop so with the group behind us already on the tee I quickly utilize the drop area at the beginning of the fairway on the green side of the hazard and pitch on and 3 putt.  My playing companion picks up the ball I hit over the green from the women`s tees.  Is 6 my correct score?

[MEfree]

I know that this is a PIA, but could someone at least answer the following related to my play of hole 7, but ignoring the local drop area-

Suppose you take a drop behind a yellow staked water hazard believing your ball to be in the hazard but upon walking around the hazard notice red stakes and find your ball in the adjacent lateral hazard.

Assuming that your entry point to the lateral is substantially different than what you originally believed your entry point to the water hazard to be, how should this be played?

Do you have to take a new drop?

Is there any additional penalty for making a stroke from an area that would not be a correct drop based upon where your ball actually entered the lateral hazard?

[Dormie1360]

If it was known or virtually certain that the ball went into the hazard and you made a drop and then found out the drop was in a wrong place...you must correct the drop with no additional penalty other than the 1 stroke penalty for being in the hazard.  This assumes you found the original in the hazard but dropped in the wrong place.  In the unlikely event that your ball was not found in the hazard but somewhere else, you must abandoned the original and continue with the dropped ball as it was correctly substituted.

If it was not known or virtually certain that the ball went into to hazard, which sounds like your case if I understand correctly........the ball was in a different hazard than you thought....you correct the drop without an additional penalty.    If the original ball was found outside the hazard, you must still abandon the drop ball and play the original.

[Dormie1360]

Had a chance to look at your original post, sorry been busy.

My 2 cents:

First, if you are not virtually certain that your ball is in a hazard (either one) and you use the drop area, you have played the hole other than in accordance with the rules of golf.  Per the  GHIN handicap manual ignore your actual score for the hole and give yourself Par plus any handicap strokes.

If you use a drop area for a ball that is in the first hazard, ( a drop area that is on the other side of the hazard closer to the green) I think that is a rather blatant misuse of of a drop area.  Again, not playing by the rules, so Par plus any handicap strokes.

If use the drop area for a ball in the hazard on the left, and the drop area is behind the lake, post your actual score.

As far as handicaps go, I don't think anyone can take issue with the above in the sense that you would not be inflating your handicap by taking par plus strokes, plus you would be following handicap posting rules.

I suppose you "could" consider what score you would have most likely made if you had dropped correctly for the hole, and used that for posting......but I'm not sure doing that would be technically defensible per "handicap posting rules".  That procedure, although at times might be more accuarate, is suppose to be used when you do not finish a hole, not when you play a hole other than by the rules.

Regardless, on balance I doubt this one hole would alter your handicap index, unless this is your home course and you hit it into the hazard a lot.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Had a chance to look at your original post, sorry been busy.

My 2 cents:

First, if you are not virtually certain that your ball is in a hazard (either one) and you use the drop area, you have played the hole other than in accordance with the rules of golf.  Per the  GHIN handicap manual ignore your actual score for the hole and give yourself Par plus any handicap strokes.

If you use a drop area for a ball that is in the first hazard, ( a drop area that is on the other side of the hazard closer to the green) I think that is a rather blatant misuse of of a drop area.  Again, not playing by the rules, so Par plus any handicap strokes.

If use the drop area for a ball in the hazard on the left, and the drop area is behind the lake, post your actual score.

As far as handicaps go, I don't think anyone can take issue with the above in the sense that you would not be inflating your handicap by taking par plus strokes, plus you would be following handicap posting rules.

I suppose you "could" consider what score you would have most likely made if you had dropped correctly for the hole, and used that for posting......but I'm not sure doing that would be technically defensible per "handicap posting rules".  That procedure, although at times might be more accuarate, is suppose to be used when you do not finish a hole, not when you play a hole other than by the rules.

Regardless, on balance I doubt this one hole would alter your handicap index, unless this is your home course and you hit it into the hazard a lot.

Thanks for the reply John.  I thought par plus handicap strokes was just used when you didn`t play a hole at all.  Suppose you lose your tee ball and decide not to play the rest of the hole.  What handicap score then?  Same lost ball but you decide to drop one out on the fairway where you would normally hit a good drive and take 3 more shots (on a par 4) to get it into the hole.  In either case, simply taking par + handicap would way underestimate your most likely score had you properly gone back to the tee and played the hole out.

[Dormie1360]

This is from the USGA Website.  You make some valid points as to the accuracy of Par plus handicap strokes.  Big picture, I think the USGA is coming from the perspective that you are going to try and  play under the rules of golf the best you can.  As I said, the occasional "illegal" hole is not going to make a difference in your handicap index.  If you think about, how many people actually play "perfect' golf as it pertains to the rules?  Wrong drops, gimmies, etc.  I think most rounds posted by the average golfer aren't totally accurate, anyway.

There used to be a question in the FAQ section about mulligans.  Again, the USGA said to post par plus handicap strokes for the hole.

Section 4

Holes Not Played/Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

Q. How do I post a score if a hole is not played or not played under the principles of The Rules Of Golf ?"

A. For handicap purposes, the player must record a score of par plus any handicap strokes normally received for the holes not played or holes not played in accordance with The Rules Of Golf . These scores should have an “X” preceding the number. For example, player A is not able to play holes 16, 17, and 18 due to darkness. Player A has a Course Handicap™ of 12 and holes 16, 17, 18 are a par 5, 3, 4, and are allocated as the number 4, 16, 10 handicap holes, respectively. Therefore, player A will record an x-6, x-3, x-5 on holes 16, 17, and 18, respectively. Please visit Section 4-2 of the USGA Handicap System manual for further reference. Section 4 Conceded Strokes/Unfinished Holes Q. How does a player post a score if conceded a stroke or does not finish a hole? A. I f a player does not finish a hole or is conceded a stroke, record the most likely score for handicap purposes. A most likely score is the number of strokes already taken, plus in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that point more than half the time. The most likely score should have an "X" preceding the number. For example, player A is just off the green in two strokes, and player A’s partner just holed out for a two; therefore, player A decides to pick up. Player A determines the most likely score would have been to chip on and two putt; therefore, player A will record an X-5 on the scorecard (two strokes already taken plus three more strokes to complete the hole). Player A does not automatically put down the Equitable Stroke Control (ESC)™ maximum. First, player A determines the most likely score and then after the round checks to see if the most likely score is above the ESC limit. In this case, player A has a Course Handicap™ of 24 and an ESC maximum of eight. Recording X-5 is not above ESC limit and therefore, X-5 is the score that must be posting for handicap purposes. Please visit Section 4-1 of the USGA Handicap System manual for further reference.

[MEfree]

Taken literally, half the guys I have played with this year would have a lot of par+handicap strokes scoring for handicap purposes.  I guess a "legitimate" way to get a vanity handicap is to break a rule anytime you are having a bad hole.  Put another way, anyone who loses one or hits it OB is a sandbagger if they drop a ball favorably on the fairway and record anything more than par plus handicap.

Another problem I see is that a hole could be both unfinished and not played under the rules of golf unless picking up on a hole outside of match play is considered to be within the principles of the rules of golf.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Another problem I see is that a hole could be both unfinished and not played under the rules of golf unless picking up on a hole outside of match play is considered to be within the principles of the rules of golf.

That would be true for stableford.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

That would be true for stableford.

ok, but what if you were not playing stableford?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MEfree

ok, but what if you were not playing stableford?

No doubt there is a rule in the USGA Handicap System Manual.

[stangmark]

For USGA card scoring purposes, local rules supersede USGA rules, and you should know your local rules.  The course I'm a member at is littered with protected trees---it is a local rule requirement, not an option, that players take free relief of one club length from all trees on the course.  So you must use that drop zone, whether you agree with it or not.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by stangmark

The course I'm a member at is littered with protected trees---it is a local rule requirement, not an option, that players take free relief of one club length from all trees on the course.  So you must use that drop zone, whether you agree with it or not.

That is an unauthorised local rule.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by stangmark

For USGA card scoring purposes, local rules supersede USGA rules, and you should know your local rules.  The course I'm a member at is littered with protected trees---it is a local rule requirement, not an option, that players take free relief of one club length from all trees on the course.  So you must use that drop zone, whether you agree with it or not.

Originally Posted by Rulesman

That is an unauthorised local rule.

Not only is it "unauthorised" but it is not even explained on the score card or with proper signage.  Basically, there is a sign (not even with a circle around it) that says "Drop Area"  How are you suppose to "know" your local rules when they don`t come with any sort of explanation?