did I cost myself an extra 2 shots?

[MEfree]

On #2 at Keystone Ranch today, I hit my first drive in the left trees and my first provisional bounced off the cart path on the right and went into those trees/longish grass near the OB line.  2nd provisional was on the fairway.

While I went to look for the first drive, one of the guys I was playing with (casual round, no matches) said he would look for the 2nd one.  After about 5 minutes, I gave up looking and called over to see if he had had any luck (at first, he was looking about 50 yards short of where I expected the 2nd ball to be, but then appear to get close to the right spot after I told him it was way ahead of where he was looking).

I then played my 3rd drive and hit it onto the green.  I then took a quick look for my 2nd ball and found it in about 10 seconds, with an open shot closer to the hole than where I had just hit my 2nd provisional onto the green.  With the group behind us waiting on the tee, I pocketed the 1st provisional and played out the 2nd provisional, 3 putting for a 9.

Could I have played the 1st provisional as it was closer to the hole than from where I played my 2nd stroke with my 2nd provisional?  Originally, I was thinking the 5 minute search period had expired for the 2nd ball at the same time as the first, but upon reading the rule, I don`t think anyone from my "side" looked more than 10 seconds for the ball.

[burner]

Originally Posted by MEfree

On #2 at Keystone Ranch today, I hit my first drive in the left trees and my first provisional bounced off the cart path on the right and went into those trees/longish grass near the OB line.  2nd provisional was on the fairway.

While I went to look for the first drive, one of the guys I was playing with (casual round, no matches) said he would look for the 2nd one.  After about 5 minutes, I gave up looking and called over to see if he had had any luck (at first, he was looking about 50 yards short of where I expected the 2nd ball to be, but then appear to get close to the right spot after I told him it was way ahead of where he was looking).

I then played my 3rd drive and hit it onto the green.  I then took a quick look for my 2nd ball and found it in about 10 seconds, with an open shot closer to the hole than where I had just hit my 2nd provisional onto the green.  With the group behind us waiting on the tee, I pocketed the 1st provisional and played out the 2nd provisional, 3 putting for a 9.

Could I have played the 1st provisional as it was closer to the hole than from where I played my 2nd stroke with my 2nd provisional?  Originally, I was thinking the 5 minute search period had expired for the 2nd ball at the same time as the first, but upon reading the rule, I don`t think anyone from my "side" looked more than 10 seconds for the ball.

The second provisional ball became void once you found the first provisional, which was playable; and should have been played.

Concede the hole in match play but d/q in stroke play if you persisted and submitted a signed card having broken a rule and continued regardless.

In friendly play, who gives a toss? Play on and keep the course moving.

Had you played your first provisional into the green and then three putted you would only have carded 7!

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by burner

The second provisional ball became void once you found the first provisional, which was playable; and should have been played.

Concede the hole in match play but d/q in stroke play if you persisted and submitted a signed card having broken a rule and continued regardless.

In friendly play, who gives a toss? Play on and keep the course moving.

Had you played your first provisional into the green and then three putted you would only have carded 7!

So the 5 minutes spent searching by the guy playing with me didn`t count and I was required to stop play on the 2nd provisional (which was sitting on the green lying 6) and continue play on my 1st provisional which was lying 3 in the woods.  This occurred to me as I finished writing my first post, but at the time, I thought I couldn`t play the 1st provisional as it had already been searched for for 5 minutes.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by MEfree

On #2 at Keystone Ranch today, I hit my original tee shot in the left trees and my Provisional #1 bounced off the cart path on the right and went into those trees/longish grass near the OB line.  2nd provisional was on the fairway.

While I went to look for the original tee shot, one of the guys I was playing with (casual round, no matches) said he would look for my Provisional #1.  After about 5 minutes, I gave up looking and called over to see if he had had any luck (at first, he was looking about 50 yards short of where I expected Provisional #1 to be, but then appear to get close to the right spot after I told him it was way ahead of where he was looking).

I then played my 2nd Provisional and hit it onto the green.  I then took a quick look for my 1st Provisional and found it in about 10 seconds, with an open shot closer to the hole than where I had just hit my 2nd provisional onto the green.  With the group behind us waiting on the tee, I pocketed the 1st provisional and played out the 2nd provisional, 3 putting for a 9.

Could I have played the 1st provisional as it was closer to the hole than from where I played my 2nd stroke with my 2nd provisional?  Originally, I was thinking the 5 minute search period had expired for the 2nd provisional at the same time as the 1st provisional, but upon reading the rule, I don`t think anyone from my "side" looked more than 10 seconds for the ball.

Ok, first I've read your original msg about 5 times and still get lost, mainly because you interchange "ball" and "provisional" throughout the msg and its hard to follow.  I've tried to make you msg easier to follow.  Is the above what happened?  If so:

"After about 5 minutes, I gave up looking"

At this point your original tee shot or ball is lost.

"I gave up looking and called over to see if he had any luck (at first he was looking about 50 yards short of where I expected provisional #1 to be"

Couple of things here:  First, because your original and provisional #1 were in different places you would have had 5 minutes to look for your original and another 5 minutes to look for your provisional #1 .  Now in your case it sounds like a fellow competitor, not partner, started looking for your provisional #1 when you started looking for your original .  According to the definition of lost ball a ball is not lost until the player's side or their caddies, having begun a search, and have not found the ball within 5 minutes  Assuming the other guy was not part of your "side", you had another 5 minutes to search for your ball.

So, if your provisional #1 was found by you within 5 minutes after the initial 5 minute search for the original ended , your provisional #1 would not be lost because of the 5 minute search rule....BUT.....you did play your 2nd provisional. Another way to deem a ball lost is to make a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball was likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

Sounds like you did not play your provisional (second ) from where the original ( 1st provisional ) was likely to be.....it was off in the weeds.  So, If your 2nd provisional was farther from the hole than your 1st provisional , and you found your 1st provisional within the 5 minutes I talked about............then yes you could have abandoned the 2nd provisional and continued play with the 1st provisional ............if I understand the situation correctly.

[MEfree]

You got it right John, so my follow up question is-  Was I REQUIRED to abandon my 2nd provisional (which was laying 6 on the green) once I found my 1st provisional?

Also, when does the 5 minutes start running on the 1st provisional- I am not clear about this from your post.  This is what happened-

1.  Looked for original for 5 minutes (while another group member looked for the 1st provisional).

2.  Played 2nd provisional from about 130 yards out.

3.  Other group member hit his shot from about 160 yards out (he may have done this before or after my 130 yard shot, not sure of exact order).

4.  Walked across fairway and found 1st provisional about 110 yard from the hole within about 10 seconds of reaching the area that I suspected it was.

On a related note, can you stop the clock on the 5 minutes-  i.e. suppose you walk ahead of your group and start looking, but have to move out of the way and stop looking when a guy behind you goes to play his shot.  2nd example- you start to look on an adjacent hole only to realize you are in the line of flight from another group that is hitting on their proper hole...you move out of the way and wait for them to hit, then resume looking after they have passed.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by MEfree

You got it right John, so my follow up question is-  Was I REQUIRED to abandon my 2nd provisional (which was laying 6 on the green) once I found my 1st provisional?

Also, when does the 5 minutes start running on the 1st provisional- I am not clear about this from your post.  This is what happened-

1.  Looked for original for 5 minutes (while another group member looked for the 1st provisional).

2.  Played 2nd provisional from about 130 yards out.

3.  Other group member hit his shot from about 160 yards out (he may have done this before or after my 130 yard shot, not sure of exact order).

4.  Walked across fairway and found 1st provisional about 110 yard from the hole within about 10 seconds of reaching the area that I suspected it was.

On a related note, can you stop the clock on the 5 minutes-  i.e. suppose you walk ahead of your group and start looking, but have to move out of the way and stop looking when a guy behind you goes to play his shot.  2nd example- you start to look on an adjacent hole only to realize you are in the line of flight from another group that is hitting on their proper hole...you move out of the way and wait for them to hit, then resume looking after they have passed.

Yes, in your case you should have abandoned your 2nd provisional on the green and continued play with your 1st provisional. I said "could play", which wasn't really correct. You were required to abandon your 2nd provisional. (again this assumes your 2nd provisional was not closer to the hole than your first provisional when you made a second stroke at it and you found your 1st provisional within the required time.)  To your last part, I'm pretty sure there is no stopping the clock for the things you describe.

As for when the 5 minutes search for your 1st provisional should start, I would think you would have enough time to walk over to where your 1st provisional would likely be and then the clock starts.  I don't think you get extra time for some of the other things that you did............but I'm not sure off hand.

If you are going to ask me what  would have happened in a tournament based on what you did.....it will have to wait......I'm going to bed.

[Rulesman]

Dec 27/4. If the two balls are so close together that, in effect, both balls would be searched for simultaneously, a total of five minutes for search is allowed. Otherwise, the player is allowed to search five minutes for each ball.

The clock starts when the player arrives at the area where he expects the ball to be.

The clock does not stop in either of the situations you describe. You should delay your search until it is safe to do so.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The clock starts when the player arrives at the area where he expects the ball to be.

thanks

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The clock does not stop in either of the situations you describe. You should delay STARTING your search until it is safe to do so FOR THE FULL 5 MINUTES.

I understand this from a bright line rule standpoint, but it doesn`t really help to speed up play...per dec 27/1 it seems like the best thing to do is to not have anyone from your side start searching for a ball until the maximum number of searchers are available (i.e. when there are two potential lost balls, everyone in a group should look for one ball first and then only start looking for the 2nd ball after the 5 minutes have expired or the first ball is found...this would apply whether it was two different player`s balls or 2 balls hit by the same player).

On a related note, we have a couple of holes with semi-blind tee shots near areas where it is possible to lose a ball (either into a hazard without virtual certainty or in some tall grass) if you don`t see where it rolls to.  Is it permitted to have one or more members of the group go ahead and fore caddy then swap places with the guys who stayed back and hit their tee shots?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Is it permitted to have one or more members of the group go ahead and fore caddy then swap places with the guys who stayed back and hit their tee shots?

It may result in a breach of 6-7 as the facility to play a provisional is available.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

It may result in a breach of 6-7 as the facility to play a provisional is available.

This seems debatable to me...I think in certain circumstances it may slow down play (i.e. when everyone hits their tee shots on the fairway) but in other circumstances it will speed it up (i.e. when players take up to 5 minutes to search for their ball before going ahead and playing the provisional).  Just because a player plays a provisional, doesn`t mean that he won`t take 5 minutes to search for the original.

Having a fore caddy could not only help to find some balls that would otherwise be lost, but it would cut down on the search time considerably for many balls that end up being found after 3 or 4 minutes.  Whether it speeds up or slows down play overall I think depends on a number of factors including the specific hole, the accuracy of the players and whether they are using a golf cart or not.

[Rulesman]

Two players.

One player goes forward to spot a ball being hit 220 yards say.

Before the second hit he has to wait for the first to get there Say 2 1/2 minutes.

After the second has played, the first has to walk back. Another 2 1/2 minutes.

He then plays and walks up the fairway again. Another 2 1/2 minutes.

That's 7 1/2 minutes added to every par 4 or 5 even if no balls are lost.

And if the same procedure is followed for the shots from the fairway .............

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Two players.

One player goes forward to spot a ball being hit 220 yards say.

Before the second hit he has to wait for the first to get there Say 2 1/2 minutes.

After the second has played, the first has to walk back. Another 2 1/2 minutes.

He then plays and walks up the fairway again. Another 2 1/2 minutes.

That's 7 1/2 minutes added to every par 4 or 5 even if no balls are lost.

And if the same procedure is followed for the shots from the fairway .............

I am thinking 4 players in two carts and only doing it on occasional holes where you can`t see tee shots run out near hazards/potential lost balls close to the fairway like this hole https://maps.google.com/maps?q=keystone+river+golf+course≪=39.6024,-105.985751&spn;=0.001616,0.001832&fb;=1≷=us&hq;=keystone+river+golf+course&radius;=15000&t;=h&z;=19

It would work like this-

2 players drive forward 220 yards in their cart- ~1-2 minute delay

2 Players at tee hit their balls and

Then drive forward while the 2 spotters return- another 1-2 minute delay

The two original spotters hit their tee shots and then drive forward

The first two to tee off go and play their second shots while the 2nd two drive up.

In total, maybe a 2-4 minute delay that has the potential to reduce/eliminate multiple 5 minute searches.  I guarantee you I would have scored lower on Keystone River #6 this year if I had a fore caddy.

Of course, if players were all walking, it would take longer.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I am thinking 4 players in two carts and only doing it on occasional holes where you can`t see tee shots run out near hazards/potential lost balls close to the fairway like this hole https://maps.google.com/maps?q=keystone+river+golf+course≪=39.6024,-105.985751&spn;=0.001616,0.001832&fb;=1≷=us&hq;=keystone+river+golf+course&radius;=15000&t;=h&z;=19

It would work like this-

2 players drive forward 220 yards in their cart- ~1-2 minute delay

2 Players at tee hit their balls and

Then drive forward while the 2 spotters return- another 1-2 minute delay

The two original spotters hit their tee shots and then drive forward

The first two to tee off go and play their second shots while the 2nd two drive up.

In total, maybe a 2-4 minute delay that has the potential to reduce/eliminate multiple 5 minute searches.  I guarantee you I would have scored lower on Keystone River #6 this year if I had a fore caddy.

Of course, if players were all walking, it would take longer.

Hey, whatever works.    There are ways to save time, provisionals are one, you may come up with a better way....just realize that R6-7 pace of play is a valid issue.  Normally in a tournament, holes with blind tee shots similar to what you describe are almost always manned by Rules Officials in the landing area.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

That's 7 1/2 minutes added to every par 4 or 5 even if no balls are lost.

And if the same procedure is followed for the shots from the fairway .............

It's actually only an extra 5 minutes in your scenario: the time for the second player to walk out and back. The 2 1/2 minutes it takes him to get to his ball after his shot would have been taken in any case. So it's not THAT bad if it's a hole where a lost ball is likely---just equivalent to the time you might spend searching.

[stangmark]

Your first shot is abandoned once you look for it and play the second provisional.  The first provisional is in play until you abandon it and strike the second provisional in play.

[KevCarter]

Rulesman, clean up needed on isle 7! LOL

[Rulesman]