How to address a cheat (or call him out)

[turtleback]

Declaring it unplayable?

That is not necessary, although you can get there that way.  But 27-1a is exactly on point and does not involve an unplayable lie:

27-1. Stroke And Distance; Ball Out Of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes

a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

[Lihu]

That is not necessary, although you can get there that way.  But 27-1a is exactly on point and does not involve an unplayable lie:

I didn't know it was possible to do this at any time, by 27-1a. Thanks.

Although, if he's already on the green it's unlikely that he would want to incur a stroke and distance penalty. That would be very strange.

[turtleback]

I didn't know it was possible to do this at any time, by 27-1a. Thanks.

Although, if he's already on the green it's unlikely that he would want to incur a stroke and distance penalty. That would be very strange.

As you pointed out, if 27-1a did not exist you could still relay any shot at a penalty of stroke and distance by calling your ball unplayable.

And we are not talking about what he would want to do, we are looking at what the application of the rules would result in.

In this case they should both be disqualified, IMO, as both of their actions constituted serious breaches of the rules IMO.

[Elmer]

As you pointed out, if 27-1a did not exist you could still relay any shot at a penalty of stroke and distance by calling your ball unplayable.

And we are not talking about what he would want to do, we are looking at what the application of the rules would result in.

In this case they should both be disqualified, IMO, as both of their actions constituted serious breaches of the rules IMO.

you mean both as in, his second shot and my moving the ball marker?

No it is not against the rules, but it has consequences.  You can replay any shot at any time at a cost of stroke and distance.  Once he chipped the second time that ball became the ball in play and he is assessed a stroke and distance penalty.  If you are going to make him play by the rules you should really get the rules correct.

And, by the way, you incurred a penalty by moving his marker without permission.  Yes I know you didn't think that was marking the ball in play but it was.  And now he gets additional penalty strokes for playing the wrong ball or playing from the wrong position because he did not replace it.

This is the problem with partially playing by the rules.  You end up not knowing what the rules really are and in trying to do the "right thing" you end up breaking even more rules without even knowing it.

I am well aware of the rule about ball markers and under normal circumstances would not have done what I did. However If I stand there and indicate to him that he had marked the wrong ball, has to take a stroke etc...etc... that just has the potential to create an argument.

I find in this situation when dealing with someone who has very little concept of the the "real" rules of golf that tossing their ball marker at that and calling them out enforces the situation. If I had just left it as is nothing would have been resolved.

I took a stand and I incorrectly did not penalize myself.

This means my 89 was really a 90.
This also means Incorrectly turned in an incorrect score card (there was no signing at the end of the round, not for a mid year tournament of a beer league).

[Lihu]

As you pointed out, if 27-1a did not exist you could still relay any shot at a penalty of stroke and distance by calling your ball unplayable.   And we are not talking about what he would want to do, we are looking at what the application of the rules would result in.   In this case they should both be disqualified, IMO, as both of their actions constituted serious breaches of the rules IMO.

Plus, turning in an incorrectly marked scorecard.

[turtleback]

you mean both as in, his second shot and my moving the ball marker?

I am well aware of the rule about ball markers and under normal circumstances would not have done what I did. However If I stand there and indicate to him that he had marked the wrong ball, has to take a stroke etc...etc... that just has the potential to create an argument.

I find in this situation when dealing with someone who has very little concept of the the "real" rules of golf that tossing their ball marker at that and calling them out enforces the situation. If I had just left it as is nothing would have been resolved.

I took a stand and I incorrectly did not penalize myself.

This means my 89 was really a 90.

This also means Incorrectly turned in an incorrect score card (there was no signing at the end of the round, not for a mid year tournament of a beer league).

The point is that you corrected his rules violation with another rules violation, instead of picking up the original ball (which, since it is no longer the ball in play, incurs no penalty for you) and telling dad he now lies 4 (assuming the ball on the fringe was his tee shot, adjust if it was a later shot), which is the correct result under the rules.

Look, I know you aren't going to change your dad, that is not my point.  My point is that as soon as you decide that some rules will not be followed you really end up with no clue as to the rules you are playing by because in the end you really aren't playing by much more than a vague approximation to the rules.  And that is fine if it is OK in the context you are playing.

But once your league, your dad, and you are all playing under different rules, whose to say whose "version" of the rules really matters?  No one has a legitimate golf score and the scores are not equitable because they have not been obtained under uniform rules.  It is the complaint you have against your father's claims of this or that for his score, just to a lesser degree.  I do not think that it is just be that he deviates from the rules, as everyone does that in your league, but the degree to which he does it that it the problem for you.  And the fact that he then claims too have beat you.

As to your comment about too many rules in your thumbs up to Lihu, the reason so many rules came into play in this situation is that wrong and inappropriate (rules-wise) things occurred that were not immediately corrected and THAT is why it became so convoluted.  The rules are pretty simple when followed.  But when they are disregard and people do whatever they want, and then you come in afterwards and try to figure out how to apply the rules to this convoluted situation that has been created by disregard of the rules, then sure it gets complicated.  But that is not the fault of the rules.

[Lihu]

Rules

Yeah, there are lots of rules, but as @turtleback mentioned if you don't violate them (most are pretty obvious) there is no need to convolve things to fit the situation.

My general rule is never touch or move the ball, and every time the club makes contact with the ball or if the ball goes into a hazard, I ask if it is a lateral boundary or an OB. Then I add strokes accordingly. OB needs a provisional and it is usually pretty obvious. Like when ball goes bouncing down the street you just drove into.

If the ball moves when you lay the club down behind it (like in deep Bermuda grass), as long as it oscillates back to the original position, it should be fine.

The tricky ones for me are "closest point of relief". I had been going towards the fairway when taking them, but then was told to take it at the "closest point".

I also downloaded an application for my Android "USGA Rules of Golf" for free. You get the rules for free, but need to pay for the decisions sections.

What I would like to see is a "Game Golf" like application/HW with a precise enough GPS tracking to the ball to make a suggestion/ruling (if applicable) on your next shot. Let's say you end up behind an electrical box, the application would tell you as such and give you the nearest point of relief. This would be a super cool application, and prevent things like "cheating" from happening. You would simply turn the thing on listen to its suggestions and play golf.

[iacas]

What I would like to see is a "Game Golf" like application/HW with a precise enough GPS tracking to the ball to make a suggestion/ruling (if applicable) on your next shot. Let's say you end up behind an electrical box, the application would tell you as such and give you the nearest point of relief. This would be a super cool application, and prevent things like "cheating" from happening. You would simply turn the thing on listen to its suggestions and play golf.

Completely unnecessary. Nobody would buy it. Those who care enough about the Rules of Golf know where to find them in the Rules book or on their Rules app. Plus, too many things change that can't be mapped via GPS, and a great many involve what people do: pick up their ball when they shouldn't, etc. That wouldn't ever show up on GPS.

[Lihu]

Completely unnecessary. Nobody would buy it. Those who care enough about the Rules of Golf know where to find them in the Rules book or on their Rules app. Plus, too many things change that can't be mapped via GPS, and a great many involve what people do: pick up their ball when they shouldn't, etc. That wouldn't ever show up on GPS.

Agreed, maybe I was targeting the application towards people who actually want to play golf and improve. Then again, I guess I'm just trying to be lazy. . .

[BallMarker]

Seems like he needs professional help. Otherwise, golf, for us hackers, is just a game we play for fun.

[natureboy]

No one is physically at risk when he cheats.

I don't know if Elmer meant a situation like this:

I've never intentionally hit into a group but I've come close 2 times when I really caught one with a club I 'knew' would come up well short. One of those times - a ball probably carried about 20 yards short of the green (squarely in the middle of the fairway) with a hybrid had disappeared when I got up the hill - if it actually got close to their group it was only rolling in. I was discourteous yes, but not endangering them. Since my range work seems to have increased potential distance, I've been much more conservative with allowing for a bigger gap since.

I've had guys intentionally hit drives that rolled within 10 feet of me as I was getting ready to hit my shot and all I did was give him a thumbs-up for the good drive and left his ball where it was. In my view the folks messing with the ball were the cheaters.

Here are some other fine golfing moments:

Get paired up with a guy who can really crush it, but hits a low screaming slice that clearly carries into the rough well right of the cart path and he zooms out in his cart ahead of me and manages to find his ball just left of the cart path instead of the hazard / woods where it should be. Later on the 18th tee he is jingling change in his pocket while I am getting ready to drive. Thanks to the awareness gained from the gamesmanship thread, I just laughed it off and crushed a drive right over the bunker that he then hit into. Casual round so I never said anything. Wouldn't bet him for money or sign his card in a tournament, though.

Another round get paired up with a guy who 'helpfully' keeps offering me his GPS distances. I do my own estimating to build the skill and he is consistently 10-20 yards off my number. Curiously, my rough estimating puts my ball about where I expect. Isn't the civilian accuracy for those devices like +/- 3 yards? Some people - geez!

[BuckeyeNut]

As addressed previously in another thread http://thesandtrap.com/t/68046/how-to-handle-a-cheater, my father is a cheater,

We are approaching my league's end of year get away trip and tournament. This year I won my flight, but lost the championship. There is also talk of nominating me as an officer. With that in mind I can no longer condone my father's cheating.

A little extra info. He does not cheat during league, regular season match play. But then again we are different handicaps, so we do not play matches against one another.

However when end of year or mid season tournament comes around he plays with his usually playing 4some, myself and 2 other guys. We all know his ways,

What he does is when he bogies or gasp-double bogies a hole he takes everyone's score (as he always drives and scores), he just waits a few holes to write his scores down.

After a few holes most likely everyone is no longer paying attention and he writes down his score to be a par.

Otherwise, he always has a ball in his pocket and therefore never looses a ball in the woods. What aides this is he does not mark his balls and plays random balls, so he has no clue what ball he uses. Therefore you find a titlest 2 and that is his!

I have told him countless times that golf is a humbling game and there is nothing wrong with having ups and down. However his ego, maybe subconsciously wont allow it.

There is no way that a person who shoots 4 over per 9 on his league course, goes to an course they never played before and shoots 2 over par! And if they do, they should be playing competitively.

The league does grown when he wins year after year.

Now that I am more confident with my game and feel I can compete, he is cheating against me, not just the league. before this I was a simply ultra hacker going out and shooting 100 and my handicap did not help. Now I can keep the ball in play and as a boggie golfer I can play right to my handicap.

It is not just as easy as calling him a cheat and telling him not to do it, because we have had that conversation.

I have considered refusing to play with him, however it took me along time to achieve a personal relationship with this individual and this is about the only time we spend together.

my first thought was to secretly keep his score on my card, as I always keep my score separate (putts, fairways etc). Then at the end of the round I can compare his to mine.

I could plan and simple point it out as after every home that he has not written his score down.

Or I can simple wait to see if I get elected an officer and then simply tell him, that his conduct can not be tolerated by me.

But in the end, we are both in the cart and both playing and he is cheating against me aswell as the entire league.

My ultimate fear is if I really call him out, he will quit and then I would lose the little time I already spend with him after a round.

Any suggestions?

This is your dad................I think it would be hard for me or anybody to say how to handle this.  It depends on the relationship you have with your father.

My dad plays loose with the rules because he tries to impress me.  We don't play for anything, so it doesn't really bother me.  I know he doesn't count all his strokes.   Playing golf with my dad is a cherished time because we live far apart and only get to play a couple times a year, so I let him do his thang'...LOL       He's 73 and I would guess a legit 14HC.......damn good at that age, IMO.    He thinks he's a 9 or 10...LOL

[turtleback]

I don't know if Elmer meant a situation like this:

I'm pretty sure that Elmer meant a situation exactly like the situation he described.  It is not like I was guessing.  Why make it about something different?

[Elmer]

I don't know if Elmer meant a situation like this:

I've never intentionally hit into a group but I've come close 2 times when I really caught one with a club I 'knew' would come up well short. One of those times - a ball probably carried about 20 yards short of the green (squarely in the middle of the fairway) with a hybrid had disappeared when I got up the hill - if it actually got close to their group it was only rolling in. I was discourteous yes, but not endangering them. Since my range work seems to have increased potential distance, I've been much more conservative with allowing for a bigger gap since.

I've had guys intentionally hit drives that rolled within 10 feet of me as I was getting ready to hit my shot and all I did was give him a thumbs-up for the good drive and left his ball where it was. In my view the folks messing with the ball were the cheaters.

Here are some other fine golfing moments:

Get paired up with a guy who can really crush it, but hits a low screaming slice that clearly carries into the rough well right of the cart path and he zooms out in his cart ahead of me and manages to find his ball just left of the cart path instead of the hazard / woods where it should be. Later on the 18th tee he is jingling change in his pocket while I am getting ready to drive. Thanks to the awareness gained from the gamesmanship thread, I just laughed it off and crushed a drive right over the bunker that he then hit into. Casual round so I never said anything. Wouldn't bet him for money or sign his card in a tournament, though.

Another round get paired up with a guy who 'helpfully' keeps offering me his GPS distances. I do my own estimating to build the skill and he is consistently 10-20 yards off my number. Curiously, my rough estimating puts my ball about where I expect. Isn't the civilian accuracy for those devices like +/- 3 yards? Some people - geez!

Spot on! Same thing. Watch a ball sail into the trees, yet is played 10 yards from the woods.

If I am playing with some random partner, or any one and we are playing for NOTHING. It does not bother me how you play your game.

What bothers me is when you play your game that way and boast a score that is not correct. Knowing full well, that we know full well that it is not the correct score.

This is your dad................I think it would be hard for me or anybody to say how to handle this.  It depends on the relationship you have with your father.

My dad plays loose with the rules because he tries to impress me.  We don't play for anything, so it doesn't really bother me.  I know he doesn't count all his strokes.   Playing golf with my dad is a cherished time because we live far apart and only get to play a couple times a year, so I let him do his thang'...LOL       He's 73 and I would guess a legit 14HC.......damn good at that age, IMO.    He thinks he's a 9 or 10...LOL

Pretty much same thing,

Except he is loose to impress himself. He must know I am smart enough to know the difference between 6 over par and his 6 over par!

[turtleback]

Spot on! Same thing. Watch a ball sail into the trees, yet is played 10 yards from the woods.

If I am playing with some random partner, or any one and we are playing for NOTHING. It does not bother me how you play your game.

What bothers me is when you play your game that way and boast a score that is not correct. Knowing full well, that we know full well that it is not the correct score.

But, but, but, that is pretty well exactly what you have described yourself as doing, just to a lesser degree and on different rules.  The point you keep missing is that you and your dad are doing the same thing, just on different rules and just to a different degree.  Someone who actually shot 98 but claimed an 85 is really no different than someone who shot 87 but claimed 85.

[Elmer]

But, but, but, that is pretty well exactly what you have described yourself as doing, just to a lesser degree and on different rules.  The point you keep missing is that you and your dad are doing the same thing, just on different rules and just to a different degree.  Someone who actually shot 98 but claimed an 85 is really no different than someone who shot 87 but claimed 85.

I understand where this idea comes from that I am a "cheat" because I play by league rules, while playing in league events (which once again does not factor into my "non" league handicap).

However that is the only time I play like that, under those rules.

It is the same as playing in a scramble, shamble or any other NON PGA format. League play is League play and different from any other round of golf. But people can still cheat while playing league play.

You play in a league, you play by the rules that the league members have voted on or instituted.

However when I am on a course, I play by the rules of golf.

The individual from the OP DOES NOT! He plays by the rules that best enable him to put down the best score on a piece of paper. He plays this way, under league play and not league play.

I dont understand how to make this point any more clear.

But please continue to point out how I am no better than any other cheater. Thank you!

" What bothers me is when you play your game that way and boast a score that is not correct."

There used to be another individual who would play 10 mulligans, not count lost balls, 10 "do-overs" (which some how is not the same as a mulligan, since he made a point that he was a Vet, who busted his knees in Vietnam, so he gets "do-overs")

After shooting about a 110, he would look at me and tell me he beat me by shooting an 85, all from the front tees.

My point was if you want to tell yourself you shot "what ever" score, so be it. But don't tell me you won a Pulitzer when you didn't!

[iacas]

@Elmer , you haven't posted outside this thread in a few weeks. I'm recommending for your sake that you become a little bit less myopic. Lots of threads out there.

[BrrrrMan78]

There is definitely a lot going on in this league, I think I saw this idea briefly mentioned it here's my 2 cents. Join the board, and have a vote requiring your score to be kept by your playing companion. If you're going off in 2somes it should be quite easy for everyone to track one other individuals score.