Pete's Programme (Single Digit to Tour Player)

[ChrisWev]

Always forget about Scampton! Worked on the same line as the Reds countless times when on Tornado/ Typhoon, mainly in Cyprus (didn't see much of them in the gulf mind, haha) etc. But suppose as you were in the tower you wouldn't have got about much with the Reds? I might do that Pelz test, kind of forgot about that! Would love to get a GC2 HMT just can't justify the cost, my pro has it though. Next house will have a pitching area like you have, and I'll probably build a swing room. 5-10k for GC2 with/ without HMT might be pushing it so looks like I'll have to settle for Flightscope or a Skytrak (if it ever comes out in the UK). Saying that could probably buy it for 5k and sell it for 3k after 5 years if need be. Probably only works out £50 a month that way, which is well worth it in my opinion. Where did you get yours, what was the cost?

[Nosevi]

Sorry, I wasn't on about measuring etc. I was more getting at can you practice short game and gc2 be accurate enough to transfer yardages over to grass. And what system do you use for shots 25%/50% etc or just feel?

Regarding whether it's accurate enough for hitting wedges, the answer is simply yes it is. If it's good enough for this guy, it's good enough for me :)

Regarding the technique I tend to use, I used to do yardages by how far back I went but I'm going more and more to just doing it by feel as I spend more time practising.

Always forget about Scampton! Worked on the same line as the Reds countless times when on Tornado/ Typhoon, mainly in Cyprus (didn't see much of them in the gulf mind, haha) etc. But suppose as you were in the tower you wouldn't have got about much with the Reds?

I might do that Pelz test, kind of forgot about that! Would love to get a GC2 HMT just can't justify the cost, my pro has it though. Next house will have a pitching area like you have, and I'll probably build a swing room. 5-10k for GC2 with/ without HMT might be pushing it so looks like I'll have to settle for Flightscope or a Skytrak (if it ever comes out in the UK). Saying that could probably buy it for 5k and sell it for 3k after 5 years if need be. Probably only works out £50 a month that way, which is well worth it in my opinion.

Where did you get yours, what was the cost?

Reds - you're right I was pretty much stuck back at Scampton for that tour but before that I was with the Harrier Force for about 8 years. Lots of time in fun places with them as well as some hot and sandy ones a few times.

Regarding the GC2 again, I think it is far better for practice and coaching than the radar units. I don't know what your trade was but at one stage I tested the new 'talk down' radars for the RAF which are doppler radars so similar to the radar launch monitors and needed a working knowledge of how the operate. The snag with a doppler radar system are that it can't measure spin axis of a golf ball, only total spin due to the frequency scatter of the returning radar signal. When you add in the fact that a radar system can't 'see' impact it's obvious that they are having to calculate some things such as face angle based on observation of ball flight. Now add it that they don't know some parts of the equation such as wind speed and direction, type of ball used (although they are probably calibrated to a generic ball) and you can see that they are having to calculate what is going on at impact.

In a nutshell a radar unit will tell you accurately where the last ball went and try to calculate how you hit the ball. A GC2 will measure how you hit the ball and calculate where that ball would go. For training I don't want to know where the last ball went (in 15 degrees C, 15mph crosswind at 78 degrees to the ball flight etc I want to know how I hit the ball and where a shot hit in perfect conditions would have gone if I hit it like that, I can then make adjustments on each shot on the course based on the prevailing conditions for that shot.

Many people hit a ball on a Flightscope or Trackman see it lands where the kit says it has (which it always will do as that is measured) and say the kit is that accurate, accepting all the numbers the kit returns. They hit a GC2 into a breeze, the ball comes up short of what the kit says and they conclude the Trackman or Flightscope is more accurate. They are totally missing the point. The GC2 has told them where a shot struck as they just did will fall in perfect conditions with zero wind. Unless you can play golf with exactly the same prevailing conditions for every shot that is far more useful that being told where that last shot went on the range with the 'how did I hit it' bit calculated with several factors that effect that missing from the equations the kit uses.

[ChrisWev]

I'll not use the quote as the post would end up massive...

I was a "Fairy"/ Avionics Tech so air based RADAR was one of my areas. Very familiar with doppler and the other RADAR types.  Yeah I've priced up a Flightscope but as it's doppler I'm not sure how the X2 could even estimate the clubhead data, when it's sat behind the ball. I can't see how this can be accurate? Saying that, ball flight laws can probably be worked back from to be a pretty close guesstimate.

Stole  some of this from a thread from about 1.5 year ago (I've emailed them for a current  UK cost):

Xi - Ball data, no spin/ AOA, no club (besides CHS) - (£1,750 + VAT in UK)
Xi+ - Ball data, Spin data/ AOA, some d-plane - (£3,500 + VAT in UK)
X2 - Everything - (£6,850 + VAT in UK)

GC2: Ball Data and spin £5,000 + VAT

HMT: Club head data £5,000 + VAT

I'm tied between Xi+, X2 (indoor space may be the main issue) and GC2 with/ without HMT. GC2 is just expensive and about 5 years old now, so I'm wondering what they have around the corner? Tough one.

I want this, just can't get it in the UK yet:

http://www.skytrakgolf.com/content/welcome-skytrak

To meet the requirements of the flightscope I would need at least a 7m x 3m x 3m high room, and that would only allow clubs up to the loft of an 8i, for full shots anyway.

[Nosevi]

I'll not use the quote as the post would end up massive...

I was a "Fairy"/ Avionics Tech so air based RADAR was one of my areas. Very familiar with doppler and the other RADAR types.  Yeah I've priced up a Flightscope but as it's doppler I'm not sure how the X2 could even estimate the clubhead data, when it's sat behind the ball. I can't see how this can be accurate? Saying that, ball flight laws can probably be worked back from to be a pretty close guesstimate.

Stole  some of this from a thread from about 1.5 year ago (I've emailed them for a current  UK cost):

Xi - Ball data, no spin/ AOA, no club (besides CHS) - (£1,750 + VAT in UK)

Xi+ - Ball data, Spin data/ AOA, some d-plane - (£3,500 + VAT in UK)

X2 - Everything - (£6,850 + VAT in UK)

GC2: Ball Data and spin £5,000 + VAT

HMT: Club head data £5,000 + VAT

I'm tied between Xi+, X2 (indoor space may be the main issue) and GC2 with/ without HMT. GC2 is just expensive and about 5 years old now, so I'm wondering what they have around the corner? Tough one.

I want this, just can't get it in the UK yet:

http://www.skytrakgolf.com/content/welcome-skytrak

To meet the requirements of the flightscope I would need at least a 7m x 3m x 3m high room, and that would only allow clubs up to the loft of an 8i, for full shots anyway.

I've got to be honest, if it's for indoor use there really is no comparison GC2 to and RADAR based systems. You need less space and it's more accurate.

Outdoor I still think a GC2 is better for training although the RADAR based systems have their place.. It's not just that the RADAR can't see the impact, it can't measure spin axis either - this is key. So if you use a ball it's not calibrated for, hit the ball a bit out of the toe which it can't tell and there's a crosswind there are just too many variables in there that the kit doesn't know. It'll tell you exactly where the ball goes but at the end of the day you can see that anyway. The numbers it then gives as to how you hit it and why it went there are far less accurate than a GC2 and those are the only numbers I actually want to know.

Skytrak is obviously camera based but less accurate than GC2. There's a comparison test here between Skytrak and Trackman:

http://www.skytrakgolf.com/learn-more/product-comparison

If you take it that Trackman will actually measure carry distance Skytrak is up to maybe 10 yards out on a few shots which is not bad I guess but what really strikes me is if you look at the side spin numbers given by it compared to Trackman. You'll see some where they disagree by as much as 600rpm (that's huge, to put it in perspective 300rpm is a pronounced draw or fade with a driver, 600 is bordering on a hook) and in at least one case they disagree on the direction of spin so essentially Trackman is seeing a draw where as Skytrak is seeing a fade. If Trackman has got the direction of spin right (and I'm guessing it will) and  Skytrak is not accurate enough to tell a fade from a draw sometimes it renders it pretty much useless for training I'm afraid. Backspin also disagrees by maybe 300-400rpm a lot of the time so tweaking drivers isn't really going to be possible on the kit. It looks like a tidy little launch monitor but I just don't think it would be accurate enough for me.

[PapaMatt]

If you take it that Trackman will actually measure carry distance Skytrak is up to maybe 10 yards out on a few shots which is not bad I guess but what really strikes me is if you look at the side spin numbers given by it compared to Trackman. You'll see some where they disagree by as much as 600rpm (that's huge, to put it in perspective 300rpm is a pronounced draw or fade with a driver, 600 is bordering on a hook) and in at least one case they disagree on the direction of spin so essentially Trackman is seeing a draw where as Skytrak is seeing a fade. If Trackman has got the direction of spin right (and I'm guessing it will) and  Skytrak is not accurate enough to tell a fade from a draw sometimes it renders it pretty much useless for training I'm afraid. Backspin also disagrees by maybe 300-400rpm a lot of the time so tweaking drivers isn't really going to be possible on the kit. It looks like a tidy little launch monitor but I just don't think it would be accurate enough for me.

I have a Skytrak and this side spin accuracy is what I fear. I hit balls on there I never hit in the real world like a 70 yard hook with a 9 iron. I didn't realize that the aide spin being off by 600 could be the difference between a draw and fade. That's pretty damn significant....I almost bought get the GC2 and kinda wish I had... Pete are those shots of dispersion you show from a PC or iPad? Just wondering if it has an app.

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

If you take it that Trackman will actually measure carry distance Skytrak is up to maybe 10 yards out on a few shots which is not bad I guess but what really strikes me is if you look at the side spin numbers given by it compared to Trackman. You'll see some where they disagree by as much as 600rpm (that's huge, to put it in perspective 300rpm is a pronounced draw or fade with a driver, 600 is bordering on a hook) and in at least one case they disagree on the direction of spin so essentially Trackman is seeing a draw where as Skytrak is seeing a fade. If Trackman has got the direction of spin right (and I'm guessing it will) and  Skytrak is not accurate enough to tell a fade from a draw sometimes it renders it pretty much useless for training I'm afraid. Backspin also disagrees by maybe 300-400rpm a lot of the time so tweaking drivers isn't really going to be possible on the kit. It looks like a tidy little launch monitor but I just don't think it would be accurate enough for me.

I have a Skytrak and this side spin accuracy is what I fear. I hit balls on there I never hit in the real world like a 70 yard hook with a 9 iron. I didn't realize that the aide spin being off by 600 could be the difference between a draw and fade. That's pretty damn significant....I almost bought get the GC2 and kinda wish I had...

Pete are those shots of dispersion you show from a PC or iPad? Just wondering if it has an app.

Hi there. With the side spin it just depends on which direction the error is in - if the ball is spinning 200rpm in the draw direction (nice little draw) and the kit gets it wrong 400 rpm towards a fade direction it'll show 200rpm of fade which is essentially what it does if you look at shot number 9 in the left hand set of shots in the link I posted. It only does that once in the example they give but the spin numbers disagree with Trackman by up to 600rpm on several occasions. I'm not saying a Skytrak isn't probably great fun it's just that for serious training it's probably just not quite accurate enough.

The shots above are ipad. The reason for the offset is I was hitting into my sim screen and I had moved my point of aim about 5 yards right of the pin which is what I do on the course. The   ipad didn't know that so it always show all shot falling left of the centreline. Anyway This is the app I use:

http://www.foresightsports.com/catalog/performance-fitting-app

[PapaMatt]

Yeah I understand how the fade draw difference works I just didn't know that 600rpm made that kind of difference, before I bought it. Having used it for a month, I see it. There have also been concerns about the horizontal launch angle. Combine that with the spin and that's probably why I get crazy stuff sometimes. And as this is not for fun for me but is as a training tool, I will have to continue thinking about whether I keep it or replace with a GC2.

[Nosevi]

Yeah I understand how the fade draw difference works I just didn't know that 600rpm made that kind of difference, before I bought it. Having used it for a month, I see it. There have also been concerns about the horizontal launch angle. Combine that with the spin and that's probably why I get crazy stuff sometimes. And as this is not for fun for me but is as a training tool, I will have to continue thinking about whether I keep it or replace with a GC2.

Money no object I don't think there's any question that for training you need something good enough that it displays an accurate representation of the shot. If it doesn't you'll be forever chasing your tail making alterations to your swing to correct for poor shots as displayed by Skytrak that were in fact bang on target. Money always is a consideration though. For what it's worth I just have the standard GC2 (no HMT tracking the club). I just couldn't legitimise the cost to get HMT. I'm trying to link a feel with a resultant ball flight, the exact angle of decent of the clubhead isn't as important to me as where the ball ends up. That said, I've got a deal with the CEO of Foresight Europe based in the UK that I can go and use their full setup with HMT for free any time I want so if I want or need some numbers re clubface and impact conditions I've just got about a 2 hour drive to go use their kit.

[Nosevi]

While I won't make a habit of it I thought I'd just do a really quick 'day in the life of' to give an idea what I get up to. Don't know if it'll be of interest but it may be so this once I'll open the doors on my day. As you can see I have some juggling to do as I look after the kids after my wife goes to work and before they are at school and again when I pick them up until she gets home.

0500 alarm call - need to get up at daft O'Clock to get phys done before my wife leaves for work.

0530 - 0630 'Route march'  - I alternate walking and biking in the morning, an injury I got in the military means I can't run but luckily doesn't effect my golf (much)

0700 - 0900 Look after kids until dropping them at school.

0915 - 1045 9 holes practice on the course.

1045 - 1115 Drive home, set up sim

1115 - 1430 In sim working mainly on iron shots which didn't go so well earlier

1430 - 1500 Realise I still hadn't had lunch so gab a quick sandwich

1515 - 1800 Pick up kids from school and look after them. Made a swing seat in my youngest's 'den'......

1800 - 2000 Wife home so head back to the course for some short game practice followed by another 9 holes (Gamegolf'd below)

2000 - 2100 Drive home, shower, catch up on here and input Gamegolf round

2100 - now Eat dinner, write up day, plan tomorrow's programme based on how different aspects went.

That's basically it. Wouldn't change it but looking after kids before and after school means I often start early and end late. I wouldn't describe it as 'easy' but then if it was everyone would do it, wouldn't they?

Most of my Gamegolf rounds are set to private, I just use them for my programme and as an aid memoir for how I'm doing. I made this evening's round public though as it sort of goes with the timeline above. Didn't think to Gamegolf the morning round I'm afraid. This course is just in my village, my main course is ever so slightly longer and tougher but this course is actually pretty good for practice as it's tight and calls for different shapes of shot on different holes. And before anyone mentions it, yes I know the hybrid was a dull call as the second shot on 4 - I thought it'd clear that tree lined ditch but caught literally the highest branch. The 6 iron afterwards to make up for it was well worth it mind you. still love hitting really good shots :)

http://www.gamegolf.com/player/Nosevi/round/420736

[k14]

Just stumbled onto this thread yesterday and loving it so far. Thanks for sharing your story Pete and very jealous of your setup. Was at the course yesterday practicing on frozen ground and thinking a home sim setup would be just the ticket. Pity all my rooms incl garage are 8 foot stud :(

[ChrisWev]

9 Pars in 9 holes, how boring , nah, well done! Mine was a bit more eventful http://www.gamegolf.com/player/Wev/round/421017 had a blow up hole but for handicap purposes that's about a +15 over round which is where I think I'm at now. Sort my putting out over the next few month and I should get to 12 HCP with relative ease. Missed 3 x 9 footers and 1 x 6 footer and 1 x 3 footer for birdie, 3 putted one of those as well :(

I found a loophole/ workaround in the SkyTrak thing, got the US iTunes account to work and got my mate to buy me one over there, should have it in a week or so. I've had my eye on this for a while and the only thing holding me back was the "not available in Europe" bit. It's going to work out about £1300 which isn't bad. I've heard and read a lot of good reviews in all honesty and think it will be very useful to me at that price. If it's 90% accurate I would be happy and they claim it's a lot better than that. Maybe I'll use this for a year and see where I'm at (I'll be ina  bigger house by then), then I may invest in a GC2 HMT, or whatever they supercede it with (if they do).

I'm discounting doppler systems altogether now, it's just not the way forward for me, room wise, although I can't argue with their accuracy of measured data and where the ball will land (take calculated with a pinch of salt).

The sidespin thing you mention, obviously these should be pretty easy to discount as they should hopefully stand out from the other 9 shots in a 10 shot set.

The biggest difference on the left hand set (6I) is about 200 rpm for the consistent shots and it does mention that side spin has been converted from spin axis and side angle are difficult to compare as they're measured/calculated different (trackman is calcultated too). There's nothing saying trackman is 100% correct though (other than where the ball will land), sidespin may be 0 but trackman have it as -150, GC2 might have it as +50 and skytrak as +200. End of the day they're all wrong. Trackman can't take gear effect into account like GC2 HMT can, which is massive to a high handicapper who doesn't hit it in the middle, there are a couple of combinations to make the ball land roughly where it would etc.

There are a couple of big differences with the driver swings, but I'll bet £50 these weren't from centre strikes. Either way they're easy to discount.

It would have been good to see the dispersion of both rather than just carry, this is miles more important. Trackman is pretty much untouchable about where the ball will land. GC2 won't be far off at all, but I imagine it's miles better at telling you how the ball got there. That's why I would go for GC2 HMT over trackman, and this is why nearly all the youtube pro's do too (Crossfield and Rick Shiels etc).

Sorry if I've hijacked the thread and put it off topic a bit, just interested in the thought process of people doing similar things.

[Nosevi]

Just stumbled onto this thread yesterday and loving it so far. Thanks for sharing your story Pete and very jealous of your setup. Was at the course yesterday practicing on frozen ground and thinking a home sim setup would be just the ticket. Pity all my rooms incl garage are 8 foot stud :(

No probs. Yep ceiling hight can be an issue for these set ups. I had the 'advantage' of not having anywhere suitable for a sim set up so had to build one. It's tough to see from photos with the sim in but when I had the garage built I had the downstairs made much higher than normal to give ample space to swing a club. There's a slate floor now on top of where I'm standing here but the ceiling sits on top of the wooden beam you can see above the bricks at the top of the back wall. I'm 6'1'' to give an idea of how 'roomy' it is in there - I didn't muck about with making it just high enough

9 Pars in 9 holes, how boring , nah, well done! Mine was a bit more eventful http://www.gamegolf.com/player/Wev/round/421017 had a blow up hole but for handicap purposes that's about a +15 over round which is where I think I'm at now. Sort my putting out over the next few month and I should get to 12 HCP with relative ease. Missed 3 x 9 footers and 1 x 6 footer and 1 x 3 footer for birdie, 3 putted one of those as well :(

I found a loophole/ workaround in the SkyTrak thing, got the US iTunes account to work and got my mate to buy me one over there, should have it in a week or so. I've had my eye on this for a while and the only thing holding me back was the "not available in Europe" bit. It's going to work out about £1300 which isn't bad. I've heard and read a lot of good reviews in all honesty and think it will be very useful to me at that price. If it's 90% accurate I would be happy and they claim it's a lot better than that. Maybe I'll use this for a year and see where I'm at (I'll be ina  bigger house by then), then I may invest in a GC2 HMT, or whatever they supercede it with (if they do).

I'm discounting doppler systems altogether now, it's just not the way forward for me, room wise, although I can't argue with their accuracy of measured data and where the ball will land (take calculated with a pinch of salt).

The sidespin thing you mention, obviously these should be pretty easy to discount as they should hopefully stand out from the other 9 shots in a 10 shot set.

The biggest difference on the left hand set (6I) is about 200 rpm for the consistent shots and it does mention that side spin has been converted from spin axis and side angle are difficult to compare as they're measured/calculated different (trackman is calcultated too). There's nothing saying trackman is 100% correct though (other than where the ball will land), sidespin may be 0 but trackman have it as -150, GC2 might have it as +50 and skytrak as +200. End of the day they're all wrong. Trackman can't take gear effect into account like GC2 HMT can, which is massive to a high handicapper who doesn't hit it in the middle, there are a couple of combinations to make the ball land roughly where it would etc.

There are a couple of big differences with the driver swings, but I'll bet £50 these weren't from centre strikes. Either way they're easy to discount.

It would have been good to see the dispersion of both rather than just carry, this is miles more important. Trackman is pretty much untouchable about where the ball will land. GC2 won't be far off at all, but I imagine it's miles better at telling you how the ball got there. That's why I would go for GC2 HMT over trackman, and this is why nearly all the youtube pro's do too (Crossfield and Rick Shiels etc).

Sorry if I've hijacked the thread and put it off topic a bit, just interested in the thought process of people doing similar things.

Yep, my golf has been getting more boring of late :) That was one of those rounds that was tidy (I normally mess up at least one hole a side) but could have, in fact should have, been far better - simply couldn't get the ball in the hole. I didn't putt badly as such, just missed all the 50/50 type puts. To give a flavour had 8 foot for birdie on the 1st, 8 foot for birdie on the 2nd, 12 foot for birdie on the 4th, 15 foot for birdie on the 5th, maybe 10 foot for birdie on the 9th....... you'd have thought I could get at least one in ?!?!?!? No knee jerk reaction though, I've been putting well of late, just one of those days.

SkyTrak, be interested to hear how you get on with it. You're right that Trackman is calculating the spin axis (or side spin component of total spin) based on ball flight so a large part of the 'error' seen in those examples could be from either system. One of the first things I did after getting the GC2 was take it to the range on a calm day to test its accuracy, really just gain a bit of confidence in the kit. We actually hit ProV1s down range (Woodhall keeps a large stock for use with the elite squads) and had someone stand where the ball landed so we could laser their back to check how close it was. Was within a yard or so every time. Anyway good luck with it - if it does half as much for your game as a GC2 has done for mine it'll be well worth it

[ChrisWev]

Yeah, will definitely be testing it with my real golf balls to see how it goes. I've probably used the GC2 numbers my coach gave me too much, they look about 7% shorter carry than a normal ball, and about 10% less than the bridgestones I use, bloody range balls!

[parlor]

Such a great thread. It's taken me a while to read but I'm subscribing and excited to see your progression...

[Nosevi]

Such a great thread. It's taken me a while to read but I'm subscribing and excited to see your progression...

Thanks. We'll see how it goes.

I think I'm giving myself the best shot I can at it having taken time to get things like the coaching, indoor launch monitor/sim set up (bearing in mind where I live) and some good players to effectively act as on course 'mentors' as well as live 'targets' - when I'm as good as them in one area or another I know I'm in the ball park for that specific area of the game. That last one is possibly the most important IMO, there's no point sitting on the couch, watching pros hit balls on TV and saying "I could do that!" Until you stand next to one and hit shots together you'll never comprehend the gap between them and you.

I've seen this kind of thing attempted before (and currently) and I've often felt it wasn't attacked 100%, kind of like the person doing it didn't know how hard it would be. I do and acknowledge I'm giving myself the best chance I can but it's a long shot....... In fact a very long shot. Quick example, this is the screen shot from my GPS standing on the first tee this morning. Only real point of the shot is the time I'm out in the morning:

Last thing for now and then I better get back to work rather than talking about it (writing this over a quick lunch break). This was one hole the other day where even my pro playing partners were quite impressed. You get some ground help on this hole if you're long enough but in still air I'm still claiming this one

[PapaMatt]

That's a bomb my friend :)

[ChrisWev]

Now that's dedication my friend, too early for me!

Are you using Golfshot there? If so it looks like you're running the old app? For some reason they still have the old and new still available :/

[Nosevi]

That's a bomb my friend :)

Yep, all the planets aligned and I just caught it perfectly, sailed for miles. I was going after it but must confess it was a little better than my average :)

Now that's dedication my friend, too early for me!

Are you using Golfshot there? If so it looks like you're running the old app? For some reason they still have the old and new still available :/

Yes it's Golfshot and it is the old app. I don't use it all the time but seems to do what I want it to do. Is the new one much better do you know?