World Amateur Golf Ranking System

[acerimusdux]

Well China may be a huge growth area, but there aren't that many golfers yet, not many courses, and it was actually banned there until the 1980s.  Just going by the current WAGR rankings, the US accounts for about 45% of the list, and the US and UK combined for about 55%.  It's possible the rest of the world is under-represented, but I don't know about that one way or the other.

Suppose we only look at +1 or better rankings, though. Maybe there are 16,000 of them between the US and UK combined. Or even if we assume +1 US is equal to UK scratch, and so include the scratch guys from the UK, that maybe brings it to about 19,000. You might still have 40,000+ globally, I suppose.

But part of the point though is, the reason they stopped relying on handicaps, in both the US and UK, for allowing amateurs into tournaments, was that the resulting level of amateur play was so poor. In both contries, there was a huge problem of players not playing to that stated handicap level in tournaments. Way too many of those handicaps seem to be there "on paper", or in the computers, but don't seem to reflect what players can actually do in tournament conditions.

If it turns out that only 25% of those are actually playing scratch or better golf in competitive tournaments, you might be down to 10,000, which might be a manageable number for a global ranking list (considering it already goes to 6000 while obviously excluding some). And it might even be less than 25%. It just seems to me, looking at actual top tournaments, the number of golfers who can actually play to say, an average of not more than a stroke above course rating, it seems like it's a fraction of what some of those handicap numbers suggest.

Now I have no idea whether the OP can do that, but I think he's just asking for the chance to prove if he can. If he can do that, maybe he could rank in the top 10,000, even if there are 30,000 guys out there with better handicaps. And if he can't do that now, maybe he can still get to that level. If the handicap alone was enough to effectively answer that question for us though, they probably wouldn't have need to create this WAGR to begin with.

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

At the end of the day it's all pretty irrelevant. What I was saying is that there are so many guys at the OP's level and better across the globe (24,000 in the States so take a shot at guessing globally including places like China) that if the ranking system opened it up to all of them but only ranked the top 6,000 he'd get lost in the rush - the odds of featuring would be miniscule and they'd have to rank a lot more players for guys at and around scratch (forgetting one system vs another) to feature. I can understand him wanting a shot though and good on him.

Well China may be a huge growth area, but there aren't that many golfers yet, not many courses, and it was actually banned there until the 1980s.  Just going by the current WAGR rankings, the US accounts for about 45% of the list, and the US and UK combined for about 55%.  It's possible the rest of the world is under-represented, but I don't know about that one way or the other.

Suppose we only look at +1 or better rankings, though. Maybe there are 16,000 of them between the US and UK combined. Or even if we assume +1 US is equal to UK scratch, and so include the scratch guys from the UK, that maybe brings it to about 19,000. You might still have 40,000+ globally, I suppose.

But part of the point though is, the reason they stopped relying on handicaps, in both the US and UK, for allowing amateurs into tournaments, was that the resulting level of amateur play was so poor. In both contries, there was a huge problem of players not playing to that stated handicap level in tournaments. Way too many of those handicaps seem to be there "on paper", or in the computers, but don't seem to reflect what players can actually do in tournament conditions.

If it turns out that only 25% of those are actually playing scratch or better golf in competitive tournaments, you might be down to 10,000, which might be a manageable number for a global ranking list (considering it already goes to 6000 while obviously excluding some). And it might even be less than 25%. It just seems to me, looking at actual top tournaments, the number of golfers who can actually play to say, an average of not more than a stroke above course rating, it seems like it's a fraction of what some of those handicap numbers suggest.

Now I have no idea whether the OP can do that, but I think he's just asking for the chance to prove if he can. If he can do that, maybe he could rank in the top 10,000, even if there are 30,000 guys out there with better handicaps. And if he can't do that now, maybe he can still get to that level. If the handicap alone was enough to effectively answer that question for us though, they probably wouldn't have need to create this WAGR to begin with.

Fair points and, like I said, take my hat off to the OP for wanting to give it a go.

[GHIN0011458]

Fair points and, like I said, take my hat off to the OP for wanting to give it a go.

Thanks. Your math boggles my mind on 400,000 scratch golfers- that is funny. I expect to be a +1 or better by the end of this year with tournament scores. At least that is what I am working towards. That SHOULD get me ranked, but it is not a guarantee. I can play to a +1 at the Metroplitan Open and still miss the cut. I would have to play to a +1.5 or better to make the cut at that tournament. SO realistically I am down to one local even that doesn't require me to take a week off of work. Another problem is that some who made the cut last year in the event weren't awarded any points either which is unfair. The only people who were awarded points were those already in the WAGR system. There are a ton of flaws with the system right now.

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Fair points and, like I said, take my hat off to the OP for wanting to give it a go.

Thanks. Your math boggles my mind on 400,000 scratch golfers- that is funny. I expect to be a +1 or better by the end of this year with tournament scores. At least that is what I am working towards. That SHOULD get me ranked, but it is not a guarantee. I can play to a +1 at the Metroplitan Open and still miss the cut. I would have to play to a +1.5 or better to make the cut at that tournament. SO realistically I am down to one local even that doesn't require me to take a week off of work. Another problem is that some who made the cut last year in the event weren't awarded any points either which is unfair. The only people who were awarded points were those already in the WAGR system. There are a ton of flaws with the system right now.

Good luck with it :)

I still do think the number would surprise you if there was any way to find out. If there are 24,000 in the States and maybe 2,000 in the UK (at a guess), what figure do you get to if you include France, Germany, Italy, Sweden ....... in fact every country in Europe, Canada, the whole of South America, Australia and the Far East, the Middle East, South Africa as well as the rest of that huge continent..........  My point was that if there's 24,000 in the States and there's 118 countries worldwide that are officially in the World Golf Foundation, you can't think that 1/4 of all scratch players are in the US so it has to be well north of 100,000. How far north would be a guess by either of us.

Maybe I'm wrong and the States does still have 1/4 of all the world's golfers in it but I'd be surprised bearing in mind the growth of the game in some parts of the world in the last 10 years or so,

Anyway, it matters very little. Sincerely, best of luck and I look forward to reading how you get on.

[acerimusdux]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GHIN0011458

That SHOULD get me ranked, but it is not a guarantee. I can play to a +1 at the Metroplitan Open and still miss the cut. I would have to play to a +1.5 or better to make the cut at that tournament. SO realistically I am down to one local even that doesn't require me to take a week off of work. Another problem is that some who made the cut last year in the event weren't awarded any points either which is unfair. The only people who were awarded points were those already in the WAGR system. There are a ton of flaws with the system right now.

Perhaps more bad news:

http://www.wagr.com/en/News/2014/November/Preliminary-Notice-Regarding-2015-Amendments.aspx

Quote:

The only counting professional events in WAGR ^TM for 2015 will be those included in the Official World Golf Ranking (OWGR) and the Rolex Rankings.

So I think that means the Metropoliotan Open no longer counts, anyway.

I can see where it's hard to do most of these, though, without using a weeks vacation time for any one of them:

Missouri Amateur Championship - event runs TUE-SUN, but you would also have a mid-week qualifier to get into it.

Missouri Stroke Play Championship - TUE-THU

Metropolitan Amateur Championship - Event itself is on a WE, but to get in you have to play a series of 6 one day events, all during the week.

Makes it hard I guess for the true amateur, who actually has a career doing something else to worry about. Especially since you would pretty much 5 such tournaments during the year to have enough for a fair ranking.

Also, to earn the initial ranking, you would need to finish in the top 3 of the Missouri Amateur Championship, or the top 2 of the other two. Am I missing any events?

[GHIN0011458]

Perhaps more bad news:

http://www.wagr.com/en/News/2014/November/Preliminary-Notice-Regarding-2015-Amendments.aspx

So I think that means the Metropoliotan Open no longer counts, anyway.

I can see where it's hard to do most of these, though, without using a weeks vacation time for any one of them:

Missouri Amateur Championship - event runs TUE-SUN, but you would also have a mid-week qualifier to get into it.

Missouri Stroke Play Championship - TUE-THU

Metropolitan Amateur Championship - Event itself is on a WE, but to get in you have to play a series of 6 one day events, all during the week.

Makes it hard I guess for the true amateur, who actually has a career doing something else to worry about. Especially since you would pretty much 5 such tournaments during the year to have enough for a fair ranking.

Also, to earn the initial ranking, you would need to finish in the top 3 of the Missouri Amateur Championship, or the top 2 of the other two. Am I missing any events?

No those are all of them. The Missouri Open, but that is all Pro's usually and very few amateurs.

I agree- I mean "amateur golf rankings" but points are only available to those who put in as much time as pros.

[acerimusdux]

No those are all of them. The Missouri Open, but that is all Pro's usually and very few amateurs.

I agree- I mean "amateur golf rankings" but points are only available to those who put in as much time as pros.

And I think even Missouri Open may not be an OWGR event.

You are right though about there being a bunch of college events. Some of them look like team events between 8-12 small schools I've never heard of, with these events being treated as equal in stregth to a statewide amateur championship. Doesn't seem quite right.

Also, I see the Kansas City Amateur Championship is a weekend tournament, but not sure if you're eligible for it. No much else near you, though.

[GHIN0011458]

@Nosevi son I don't like the current format. The guy shoots 91,89,87 at The Goodwin with some serious golf programs. Just because he is in the field automatically ranks him. I guarantee I am more capable of scoring than him. His scoring average is 81 and the courses hes playing on are 6700-7000 yards.. But he is ranked 4300 in the world.

http://www.wagr.com/en/Ranking/Player.aspx?playerid=9317&ismens;=True

[Nosevi]

@Nosevi This is the reason I don't like the current format. The guy shoots 91,89,87 at The Goodwin with some serious golf programs. Just because he is in the field automatically ranks him. I guarantee I am more capable of scoring than him. His scoring average is 81 and the courses hes playing on are 6700-7000 yards.. But he is ranked 4300 in the world.  [URL=http://www.wagr.com/en/Ranking/Player.aspx?playerid=9317&ismens;=True]http://www.wagr.com/en/Ranking/Player.aspx?playerid=9317&ismens;=True[/URL]

You make a compelling argument, can't remember when I scored that high on any course. At the lower levels like where this guy is it seems to be a totally meaningless system.

[MrFlipper]

@Nosevi This is the reason I don't like the current format. The guy shoots 91,89,87 at The Goodwin with some serious golf programs. Just because he is in the field automatically ranks him. I guarantee I am more capable of scoring than him. His scoring average is 81 and the courses hes playing on are 6700-7000 yards.. But he is ranked 4300 in the world.

http://www.wagr.com/en/Ranking/Player.aspx?playerid=9317&ismens;=True

Whoa, bank your fires there.

I googled him. Have you? Maybe he struggled at that tournament, but it would appear that he accumulated points significantly before that.

Among other things he was Canadian Junior of the Year in 2011. Got a golf scholarship to Princeton.

That ain't bad. I'd say that somewhat defines him as a pretty decent player.  And no, we aren't related

[GHIN0011458]

Whoa, bank your fires there.

I googled him. Have you? Maybe he struggled at that tournament, but it would appear that he accumulated points significantly before that.

Among other things he was Canadian Junior of the Year in 2011. Got a golf scholarship to Princeton.

That ain't bad. I'd say that somewhat defines him as a pretty decent player.  And no, we aren't related

Well his counting scores average is 81. In 2011 he was good, but why is he ranked now? 2011 doesn't define you in 2015 would you agree? He didn't struggle at just that tournament, in fact, he had one good tournament where all the scores were pretty low which leads me to believe that the course played somewhat easy.

He has finished DFL about 8 times in the last 4 years with a scoring average of about 80.

Canada must be loaded with talent...