Equitable Stroke Control usage

[iacas]

No,

That's incorrect. They don't get handicaps for any type of professional competition, but why couldn't they "have" a handicap?

My pro is a 4.6 index. He's playing against a bunch of us tomorrow in a little tournament and he gets five strokes.

And since the minute you become a professional you instantly become ineligible for USGA amateur tournaments, why would a professional have a handicap.

You seem to be the only one concerned with these big tournaments. Most club pros don't compete in that way, and they have a handicap (often not a + handicap) so that they can properly compete against their members and other amateurs.

And as far as Tiger Having a +8 handicap, well the lowest handicap possible is a +3.5.

There's no such thing as a limit on handicaps.

I mean I guess a pro might need to know what handicap he was equivilent to for informal betting with amateurs but that seems odd to me.

It shouldn't. It's fairly common.

It doesn't make much sense for Tiger Woods to get a handicap. He'd never use it. But a club pro, who mostly deals with selling sweaters? Why shouldn't he? Why couldn't he? So what if he doesn't get to use it in the occasional "pro" event?

[BlitzkriegBart]

I've never used ESC while calculating my handicap. But if I do, all those 8's I have should go away and will drop my handicap a little bit more.

See ... I figured that there were more people out there like me. It took a while, though.

I am going to start using ESC, though. It is standard for calculating handicaps and handicaps are the standard method for seeing how your game ranks among your peers. Besides it doesn't really take any effort to figure out. I don't want to enter in every hole separately to calculate my handicap, but if you use this page . It will tell you the limit per hole that you are allowed to count. That seems just as easy. Also, I decided that I would just make my own excel spreadsheet to calculate my handicap, instead of using a free site or paying for a different product. I'm a big fan of customization, and making your own is about as custom as it gets. It's pretty raw right now, but it works and is quick. Besides I can just use Logmein to dial into my computer and enter a round just as easily as logging onto a website.

[NM Golf]

That's incorrect. They don't get handicaps for any type of professional competition, but why couldn't they "have" a handicap?

They could, I just don't know any that do.

You seem to be the only one concerned with these big tournaments. Most club pros don't compete in that way, and they have a handicap (often not a + handicap) so that they can properly compete against their members and other amateurs.

Again this is all new to me. I have never heard of a pro playing in an amateur event. All the pros I know only play professional section events around the state. And they do compete a lot. There are many professional events for the pros around here. The head pro at my course has played in like 15 events this year.

I guess live and learn, things are just different here. Maybe there are just more events for professionals in New Mexico.

There's no such thing as a limit on handicaps.

The lowest handicap you can enter into the USGA course handicap calculator is a +3.5. I mean the handicap calculator uses an algorithm so you could figure out whatever handicap you want.

It shouldn't. It's fairly common. It doesn't make much sense for Tiger Woods to get a handicap. He'd never use it. But a club pro, who mostly deals with selling sweaters? Why shouldn't he? Why couldn't he? So what if he doesn't get to use it in the occasional "pro" event?

I guess if a pro wants a handicap he can get one like anyone else. I don't neccessarily have any problem with that.

At the risk of sounding repetitive though, it may be common there, but its not common here. All the pros I know and play with don't have handicaps, don't play in club events, and for the most part don't play golf much at all with people they have to give strokes to in the first place. Although I do know some pros that would be 8 or 9 handicaps. Anywho, like in most things I guess we learn how things differ in other parts of the country.

[pjsnyc]

I don't know of any sites, but I'm going to be offering a Windows copy of an application I helped design called "Scorecard." It can not only calculate your handicap but will show you 20-30 other meaningful statistics that you can use to fine-tune your game. I've been using it, and you can see the results of its HTML output here:

Sweet! Question tho - is there a print-out sheet that comes with the program so we know exactly what metrics to keep track of each round? Also, I use digitaldivot.com to track my 'handicap'...not sure if it incorporates ESC tho...ill have to check the FAQ.

[iacas]

They could, I just don't know any that do.

That's quite different than what you said before. I'm not trying to bust your balls or anything.

Again this is all new to me. I have never heard of a pro playing in an amateur event.

I think if you stop thinking of them as "events" you're on the road to realizing that, again, not every club pro even plays golf all that frequently.

This "event" tomorrow is 28 guys playing on two-man teams in a modified Southern Point tournament. There are $60 up for skins and a whopping $120 to the first place team. Calling it an "event" is stretching it. OBVIOUSLY pros cannot compete in "amateur" events. They're not amateurs. But we're talking about pros having handicaps, and even your pros could have handicaps if they wanted. If one of your pros is a +4 and the other a +2, odds are the +2's gonna lose a lot more frequently if they play straight up. And you, at scratch, are likely gonna lose to both of them.

The lowest handicap you can enter into the USGA course handicap calculator is a +3.5.

Again, that's not what you said. I appreciate the clarity you're bringing to your statements now, but please say what you mean first to avoid the confusion.

Clearly what a handicap takes as valid input and what is a valid handicap are not the same thing. There is no actual "cap" on handicaps.

At the risk of sounding repetitive though, it may be common there, but its not common here.

I don't think it's a geographical issue so much as a responsibility issue. Some club pros teach and sell sweaters. Others play, practice, and teach. I think it's really silly to say it's geographical - it has more to do with the type of club someone's at and whether that club values the "PR" of having a good player on staff versus, say, a good businessman, a good teacher, etc.

[iacas]

Sweet! Question tho - is there a print-out sheet that comes with the program so we know exactly what metrics to keep track of each round?

Yes. Scorecard will print customized score sheets to keep track of your five stats if you wish.

But I don't do that - I keep my five stats in two boxes on my scorecard. That's all the space it takes. In the top box I write my score. Top right I draw an arrow to indicate whether I hit the fairway (up arrow) or left or right arrows for misses. Bottom right corner I put the number of putts. In the second box I write G, UD, or SS for GIR, up and down, or sand save. I draw a line through UD or SS if I fail. Lower right corner I write the distance of my first putt. If you want to see a PDF of Scorecard's manual, I've put a copy up here . P.S. If you use the coupon code "SANDTRAP" (for a limited time only) you'll save $6 - over 20% - off your copy of Scorecard.

[NM Golf]

I appreciate the clarity you're bringing to your statements now, but please say what you mean first to avoid the confusion.

Clarity sometimes, unfortunately, takes a couple of tries.

I don't know if its geographical or what it is. And since I am far from owning any type of country club membership, I am probably the worst person to try and say what goes on there. I just spoke from my experience working and playing with municipal club pros. It is not difficult to understand their jobs differ tremendously from their country club counterparts. And there is maybe the difference in itself. Country club pros are much more likely to play with the membership since its their job for goodness sakes. Public course pros give lessons, sell greens fees, and play with whoever the heck they want.

[powerfade]

No,

It looks like you and iacas covered it but obviously PGA Tour pros are not likely to carry a USGA Index anymore (but they

could ) and we know club pros, even PGA of America pros, carry one because they do play against amateurs sometimes. I'm not talking about pro tournaments either. The USGA is for all golfers - pro's and amateurs. I disagreed with you because you were questioning why Ben , a PGA Apprentice, carried an Index. I was correct in saying USGA Indexes are available to professionals through a golf club.

[Ben]

I play with whoever I like as well.

[justinp]

Club Pros can, and often do, carry USGA Handicap Indexes. Most Tour Pros don't carry an Index because they never use it. However, there is nothing stopping Tiger Woods from posting his scores into the computer at Isleworth and maintaining a USGA index. Now Tiger can't compete in sanctioned "amateur events" because he doesn't have amateur status. However, it is up to each USGA member club to determine if a professional is allowed to play in a club tournament. So, using the above example, if Isleworth decided to allow professionals to play in its club tournaments there would be nothing stopping Tiger from playing in the Club Championship for instance.

Carrying that over to your local club, if the Club Pro (or the golf committee in some cases) deem that he can play in club tournaments then he can play. Now, in most cases this doesn't happen because most club pros realize this is a conflict of interest. It would certainly look bad if your club champ 3 years running just happened to be the head pro.

[iacas]

Club Pros can, and often do, carry USGA Handicap Indexes. Most Tour Pros don't carry an Index because they never use it. However, there is nothing stopping Tiger Woods from posting his scores into the computer at Isleworth and maintaining a USGA index. Now Tiger can't compete in sanctioned "amateur events" because he doesn't have amateur status. However, it is up to each USGA member club to determine if a professional is allowed to play in a club tournament. So, using the above example, if Isleworth decided to allow professionals to play in its club tournaments there would be nothing stopping Tiger from playing in the Club Championship for instance.

Plus, most club championships make everyone with a 3 index or less play at scratch. The club championship at Greyhawk in Arizona has several Tour players in it each year, including Phil, Baddeley, Ogilvy, etc.

[NM Golf]

Plus, most club championships make everyone with a 3 index or less play at scratch. The club championship at Greyhawk in Arizona has several Tour players in it each year, including Phil, Baddeley, Ogilvy, etc.

Boy, that would have to suck if you were a scratch amateur. There's no way you would ever be club champion.

On the bright side though maybe you might get paired with one of them.

[iacas]

Boy, that would have to suck if you were a scratch amateur. There's no way you would ever be club champion.

I think it sucks more for the three handicappers, actually.

[crazy_horst]

@BlitzkiregBart: Absolutely I use ESC. I hate it when my handicap goes up. Besides a low handicap looks better on paper.

That actually kind of leads me to my question (although the answer is obvious): what is the

point of ESC. I mean I'm a 14.8, but if I yank two in the drink on a par 5 and card an 11, aren't I lying to myself if I write down 7? I just never understood the theory behind it, and hoped maybe someone could explain it to me.

[iacas]

That actually kind of leads me to my question (although the answer is obvious): what is the

From the Pope of Slope (popeofslope.com):

Source: Pope of Slope Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) is the downward adjustment of unusually high scores on individual holes, which if included in the 18-hole score, would be abnormally high in relation to the player's general ability. For instance, if a golfer typically scores 15 pars during a round but is 12 over par for the remaining three holes, it wouldn't be fair for him (or his opponents) if he were awarded a 12-handicap. ESC was installed to curb 18-hole scores that are so high as to be an anomaly.

Source: bottom of this page: http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/jury.html . Please note that the top of that page refers to an older version of the ESC rules, the first version introduced, which varied slightly from the current ESC.

[NM Golf]

I think it sucks more for the three handicappers, actually.

I would have to agree. Can you imagine playing off a 3 handicap, teeing it up with Aaron Baddeley and Phil Mickelson, and knowing your not getting a single solitary pop. Yikes, talk about donating your entry fee!