Subway pitchman Jared Fogle’s home raided in child porn investigation

[Duff McGee]

My neighbor is a retired prison guard from Rikers Island, we've had many discussions about the topic and it seems the movies and newspapers overplay the rape and violence to a large extent.  He didn't say rape never happens but it's typically reserved for the child molesters, pedophiles and those who murdered kids.  The prisons know this and usually isolate these types of prisoners from general population, while he was there they also tried to isolate 18-20 year olds for their protection.  He said outside of "prison justice" rape isn't as frequent as the movies would suggest because there are a large number of inmates who willingly provide services in exchange for prison currency or protection. Those in maximum security prisons are there because they did some really bad stuff and that behavior doesn't change in prison.  Gang members align with members from their gang inside the prison, but overall, each gang goes about it's business.  Obviously incidents happen and prisoners get hurt but very few are murdered.  I was surprised to learn that the two leading causes of death in prison are suicide and heart disease.   I wasn't so surprised by suicide but didn't figure heart disease for #2. Maximum security prisons hold criminals who are too violent to function in society, if there's not a magic drug or operation to alter that behavior what do you do with them but lock them up in a prison?  I'm pro death penalty but the legal and administrative costs are so high to actually enforce the sentence it's typically not a highly utilized option in states where it's legal.

I see his point but why should anyone "need protection." That's the weird thing about prisons to me. No one on the outside needs to give sexual favors for protection (maybe in the very most underground parts of society) and these people are in jail surrounded by guards. They shouldn't be allowed to form cliques. Maybe have group activities or something but maybe make a rule where only 2 people can ever be together talking at once or something. Also why would there ever be a chance for someone to be raped? Guards should be watching the showers and no inmates should ever be permitted to do anything out of sight. They should either be in their cells or under the watchful eye of guards.

[newtogolf]

I see his point but why should anyone "need protection." That's the weird thing about prisons to me. No one on the outside needs to give sexual favors for protection (maybe in the very most underground parts of society) and these people are in jail surrounded by guards.

They shouldn't be allowed to form cliques. Maybe have group activities or something but maybe make a rule where only 2 people can ever be together talking at once or something.

Also why would there ever be a chance for someone to be raped? Guards should be watching the showers and no inmates should ever be permitted to do anything out of sight. They should either be in their cells or under the watchful eye of guards.

The ratio of inmates to guards is about 50:1 and about 30:1 in the worst sections.  Most prisons are going to a "pod" concept but even then, there aren't enough guards to see what goes on everywhere and inmates know how to create diversions when something does down.

It's a numbers game, it costs NY taxpayers about $95,000 per prisoner when all the costs are factored in, so hiring more guards just isn't in the budget.  He said he wished there were more guards because when things go bad, it got really scary.  Prisons are a huge strain on major cities budgets, NY city budgets $1.1B per year for prisons and the costs keep going up.

As for cliques, prisoners basically separate themselves by race and are usually only in large groups during meals and in the prison yard.  Some of the better behaved prisoners have jobs and work together but they are not the ones that cause problems.   The rest of their time is spent in their cell.

As for why is there ever a chance for someone to be raped, let's say that even hardened criminals have ethics and those who commit crimes against kids tend to not be well protected.

[dkolo]

My neighbor is a retired prison guard from Rikers Island, we've had many discussions about the topic and it seems the movies and newspapers overplay the rape and violence to a large extent.  He didn't say rape never happens but it's typically reserved for the child molesters, pedophiles and those who murdered kids.  The prisons know this and usually isolate these types of prisoners from general population, while he was there they also tried to isolate 18-20 year olds for their protection.  He said outside of "prison justice" rape isn't as frequent as the movies would suggest because there are a large number of inmates who willingly provide services in exchange for prison currency or protection.

Those in maximum security prisons are there because they did some really bad stuff and that behavior doesn't change in prison.  Gang members align with members from their gang inside the prison, but overall, each gang goes about it's business.  Obviously incidents happen and prisoners get hurt but very few are murdered.  I was surprised to learn that the two leading causes of death in prison are suicide and heart disease.   I wasn't so surprised by suicide but didn't figure heart disease for #2.

Maximum security prisons hold criminals who are too violent to function in society, if there's not a magic drug or operation to alter that behavior what do you do with them but lock them up in a prison?  I'm pro death penalty but the legal and administrative costs are so high to actually enforce the sentence it's typically not a highly utilized option in states where it's legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States

Just to put some quick and dirty numbers on this, estimates on this are obviously very tough to pin down, but just using the DOJ numbers, 4% of inmates get sexually victimized each year. Even if you halve that, that's an outrageous number.

[newtogolf]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States

Just to put some quick and dirty numbers on this, estimates on this are obviously very tough to pin down, but just using the DOJ numbers, 4% of inmates get sexually victimized each year. Even if you halve that, that's an outrageous number.

Agree, but short of isolation or a heavy increase in the number of guards and cost per inmate it's unlikely a stat that's going to change.

As a social moderate but fiscal conservative I take a lot of heat for this but I think the country needs to legalize drugs.  By legalizing them, taxes can be collected for rehab and treatment of abusers, less people will be arrested for drug possession and the demand on prison systems and taxpayers will be reduced.  Quantity and quality of drugs can also be controlled.  The profit incentive for illegal dealers and gangs will be reduced and we will be able to clear our prisons of a lot of non-violent inmates.  A high percentage of prison inmates are drug users / dealers.

Despite our best efforts, we've lost the war on drugs and until we accept that and change the way society views drug addicts we're just going to continue to over crowd our prisons and waste taxpayer money.

[Lihu]

Just kind of demonstrates the moral breakdown in our society. . .

[newtogolf]

Just kind of demonstrates the moral breakdown in our society. . .

This is not my personal position but an observation.

Crime and punishment has always been a problem for societies.  Some countries use harsher methods to deter crime (eye for an eye) approach where people are whipped, stoned, mutilated and killed as punishment for their crimes.  The threat of such punishment is the deterrent to commit crimes.

Some societies deemed themselves more advanced than those "barbarian countries" prefer the concept of prisons where we isolate the criminals from society so they can do no more harm and can basically forget about they exist.  We bury our heads in the sand and sleep better at night as we aren't forced to witness what happens to them in prison.  We console ourselves further by offering these criminals rehab and education while in prison so they can come out reformed and positively contribute to the society that banished them.

In the US, it doesn't seem like the prison systems work and we're too "advanced" to adopt the ways of other nations.  We are a society that ignores reality unless it's thrown in our faces and then we act appalled by it until we face the next reality and forget about how appalled we were by the previous.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Just kind of demonstrates the moral breakdown in our society. . .

This is not my personal position but an observation.

Crime and punishment has always been a problem for societies.  Some countries use harsher methods to deter crime (eye for an eye) approach where people are whipped, stoned, mutilated and killed as punishment for their crimes.  The threat of such punishment is the deterrent to commit crimes.

Some societies deemed themselves more advanced than those "barbarian countries" prefer the concept of prisons where we isolate the criminals from society so they can do no more harm and can basically forget about they exist.  We bury our heads in the sand and sleep better at night as we aren't forced to witness what happens to them in prison.  We console ourselves further by offering these criminals rehab and education while in prison so they can come out reformed and positively contribute to the society that banished them.

In the US, it doesn't seem like the prison systems work and we're too "advanced" to adopt the ways of other nations.  We are a society that ignores reality unless it's thrown in our faces and then we act appalled by it until we face the next reality and forget about how appalled we were by the previous.

While I agree with what you stated, I meant that the fact that Jared (or anyone) is trying to solicit sex with young girls clearly demonstrates a complete moral breakdown in our society. On top of this, it's absolutely unfathomable that some people are trying to legalize child pornography and other such lewd acts with minors.

[newtogolf]

While I agree with what you stated, I meant that the fact that Jared (or anyone) is trying to solicit sex with young girls clearly demonstrates a complete moral breakdown in our society. On top of this, it's absolutely unfathomable that some people are trying to legalize child pornography and other such lewd acts with minors.

Look back at Roman times, pedophilia is not new to our civilization.  The internet and social media makes us more aware of it but it's always been around.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

While I agree with what you stated, I meant that the fact that Jared (or anyone) is trying to solicit sex with young girls clearly demonstrates a complete moral breakdown in our society. On top of this, it's absolutely unfathomable that some people are trying to legalize child pornography and other such lewd acts with minors.

Look back at Roman times, pedophilia is not new to our civilization.  The internet and social media makes us more aware of it but it's always been around.

Yes, but Rome also fell due to numerous factors including moral decay. . .

[newtogolf]

Yes, but Rome also fell due to numerous factors including moral decay. . .

Something else to consider is that age of consent in the US has risen over the years.  My great grandmother was married in Italy at 15 and the age of consent still varies widely across cultures and countries across the globe.

What was once acceptable and legal is now illegal and considered a perversion.  I'm in no way defending pedophiles or child molesters just pointing out that this isn't a problem that just snuck up on us in the last few years.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Yes, but Rome also fell due to numerous factors including moral decay. . .

Something else to consider is that age of consent in the US has risen over the years.  My great grandmother was married in Italy at 15 and the age of consent still varies widely across cultures and countries across the globe.

What was once acceptable and legal is now illegal and considered a perversion.  I'm in no way defending pedophiles or child molesters just pointing out that this isn't a problem that just snuck up on us in the last few years.

If he were looking to marry a 15 year old girl, that's a bit better. Unfortunately, that was quite the opposite of his intent.

People's life expectancy was a lot lower in your Great Grandmother's time and they prepared themselves sooner for family life, but that's not the issue. The issue is that a 15 year old girl in this age has not seen enough of the world to know what she is consenting. The article mentioned that Jared solicited a 17 year old girl to find a younger girl which in his own words were "the younger the better. So, how is a 15 year old girl who is solicited by that 17 year old girl going to know that there is a married pedophile waiting to perform lewd sexual acts of perversion upon her?

The fact that it is this common and widespread is a moral breakdown in what we teach people is right and wrong. No one really knows or understands that accepting this behavior is like a cancer to our society. Once they accept 15 years as consenting, why not 12? or younger? It's a slippery slope to a degenerate society.

[Jeremie Boop]

If he were looking to marry a 15 year old girl, that's a bit better. Unfortunately, that was quite the opposite of his intent.

People's life expectancy was a lot lower in your Great Grandmother's time and they prepared themselves sooner for family life, but that's not the issue. The issue is that a 15 year old girl in this age has not seen enough of the world to know what she is consenting. The article mentioned that Jared solicited a 17 year old girl to find a younger girl which in his own words were "the younger the better. So, how is a 15 year old girl who is solicited by that 17 year old girl going to know that there is a married pedophile waiting to perform lewd sexual acts of perversion upon her?

The fact that it is this common and widespread is a moral breakdown in what we teach people is right and wrong. No one really knows or understands that accepting this behavior is like a cancer to our society. Once they accept 15 years as consenting, why not 12? or younger? It's a slippery slope to a degenerate society.

I'd argue that a 15 year old now has more knowledge of what they are consenting to than someone of yesteryear. That's not me saying what he did was ok by any means though.

[dkolo]

Agree, but short of isolation or a heavy increase in the number of guards and cost per inmate it's unlikely a stat that's going to change.

As a social moderate but fiscal conservative I take a lot of heat for this but I think the country needs to legalize drugs.  By legalizing them, taxes can be collected for rehab and treatment of abusers, less people will be arrested for drug possession and the demand on prison systems and taxpayers will be reduced.  Quantity and quality of drugs can also be controlled.  The profit incentive for illegal dealers and gangs will be reduced and we will be able to clear our prisons of a lot of non-violent inmates.  A high percentage of prison inmates are drug users / dealers.

Despite our best efforts, we've lost the war on drugs and until we accept that and change the way society views drug addicts we're just going to continue to over crowd our prisons and waste taxpayer money.

This is not my personal position but an observation.

Crime and punishment has always been a problem for societies.  Some countries use harsher methods to deter crime (eye for an eye) approach where people are whipped, stoned, mutilated and killed as punishment for their crimes.  The threat of such punishment is the deterrent to commit crimes.

Some societies deemed themselves more advanced than those "barbarian countries" prefer the concept of prisons where we isolate the criminals from society so they can do no more harm and can basically forget about they exist.  We bury our heads in the sand and sleep better at night as we aren't forced to witness what happens to them in prison.  We console ourselves further by offering these criminals rehab and education while in prison so they can come out reformed and positively contribute to the society that banished them.

In the US, it doesn't seem like the prison systems work and we're too "advanced" to adopt the ways of other nations.  We are a society that ignores reality unless it's thrown in our faces and then we act appalled by it until we face the next reality and forget about how appalled we were by the previous.

I don't think the way we do our prisons is particularly advanced at all. Part of the issue we've had has been with a push towards privatization of the operations of prisons at the state level. It introduces a huge conflict of interest: the prison operator wants to reduce spending as much as possible to maximize profit, which results in prisoner health and safety being compromised, while not having a particular interest in lowering recidivism because that's a bad business strategy long term (repeat customers, essentially). We spend a fortune on incarceration and we rightfully want to lower those costs, but the way we've gone about doing so has been completely counterproductive.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

If he were looking to marry a 15 year old girl, that's a bit better. Unfortunately, that was quite the opposite of his intent.

People's life expectancy was a lot lower in your Great Grandmother's time and they prepared themselves sooner for family life, but that's not the issue. The issue is that a 15 year old girl in this age has not seen enough of the world to know what she is consenting. The article mentioned that Jared solicited a 17 year old girl to find a younger girl which in his own words were "the younger the better. So, how is a 15 year old girl who is solicited by that 17 year old girl going to know that there is a married pedophile waiting to perform lewd sexual acts of perversion upon her?

The fact that it is this common and widespread is a moral breakdown in what we teach people is right and wrong. No one really knows or understands that accepting this behavior is like a cancer to our society. Once they accept 15 years as consenting, why not 12? or younger? It's a slippery slope to a degenerate society.

I'd argue that a 15 year old now has more knowledge of what they are consenting to than someone of yesteryear. That's not me saying what he did was ok by any means though.

They know a lot more, but are generally not focused towards having a family life early on. Many modern women are not prepared for a family life until they turn 25. The other side of modern society is that it takes longer for people to mature into adulthood, they need to know more things and they are expected to accomplish more things.

Adulthood is complicated enough in this modern world and would be better off not being more so by a pedophile taking advantage of them when they are young and innocent.

[Jeremie Boop]

They know a lot more, but are generally not focused towards having a family life early on. Many modern women are not prepared for a family life until they turn 25. The other side of modern society is that it takes longer for people to mature into adulthood, they need to know more things and they are expected to accomplish more things.

Adulthood is complicated enough in this modern world and would be better off not being more so by a pedophile taking advantage of them when they are young and innocent.

True, they know more but are not of a settling down and having a family mindset. Definitely a difference there.

[Duff McGee]

Yes, but Rome also fell due to numerous factors including moral decay. . .

That is a huge myth put forward by religious groups. Morality is a relative concept except for the few universal wrongs such as murder and theft.

[newtogolf]

If he were looking to marry a 15 year old girl, that's a bit better. Unfortunately, that was quite the opposite of his intent.

People's life expectancy was a lot lower in your Great Grandmother's time and they prepared themselves sooner for family life, but that's not the issue. The issue is that a 15 year old girl in this age has not seen enough of the world to know what she is consenting. The article mentioned that Jared solicited a 17 year old girl to find a younger girl which in his own words were "the younger the better. So, how is a 15 year old girl who is solicited by that 17 year old girl going to know that there is a married pedophile waiting to perform lewd sexual acts of perversion upon her?

The fact that it is this common and widespread is a moral breakdown in what we teach people is right and wrong. No one really knows or understands that accepting this behavior is like a cancer to our society. Once they accept 15 years as consenting, why not 12? or younger? It's a slippery slope to a degenerate society.

What you're ignoring is that the age of consent in other countries is very different from ours, the age of consent for male / female sex even varies state to state.  Most countries use 16 as the age of consent but some are lower, here are a few;

• Argentina - 12
• Austria - 14
• Brazil - 14
• Bulgaria - 14
• Korea - 13
• Mexico - 12
• Netherlands- 12
• Nigeria - 13
• Paraquay - 12
• Peru - 14
• Puerto Rico - 14
• Romania - 14
• South Korea - 13
• Spain - 13
• Even in the US, Missouri, South Carolina and Iowa - 14, while most states are 16, some are 17 and 18.

[Gunther]

What you're ignoring is that the age of consent in other countries is very different from ours, the age of consent for male / female sex even varies state to state.  Most countries use 16 as the age of consent but some are lower, here are a few; [LIST] [*] Argentina - 12 [*] Austria - 14 [*] Brazil - 14 [*] Bulgaria - 14 [*] Korea - 13 [*] Mexico - 12 [*] Netherlands- 12 [*] Nigeria - 13 [*] Paraquay - 12 [*] Peru - 14 [*] Puerto Rico - 14 [*] Romania - 14 [*] South Korea - 13 [*] Spain - 13 [*] Even in the US, Missouri, South Carolina and Iowa - 14, while most states are 16, some are 17 and 18. [/LIST]

This makes me ill, having a 15 yr old.