Brexit - Leave or Remain

[paininthenuts]

On 6/27/2016 at 3:47 PM, Abu3baid said:

Why will they be in a bad spot exactly?  They will have captured their freedom from the UK no?

They have resources and if they are able to pull out from the UK it will be a new start, an independent one.  Plus, they obviously don't have the same vision as the rest of England.

You may not like this, but it's true. Scotland are a very small country with people who have massive chips on their shoulders. The vast majority of English would be more than happy to see the back of Scotland, because they offer us next to nothing in financial terms, and take English jobs. 

[paininthenuts]

Let's start from the beginning again, as I have a question for all you American's who are pro EU. If your president suggested the USA join a union where you put in a massive sum of money each year, and only get 40% of it back, be told that you have to let in immigrants from 27 other countries so they can take your jobs, and use all the services your taxes have paid for, and then be told endless regulations and laws will be introduced, that your country has no power over, how would you feel ????????????????

 

I think I know the answer, so perhaps you now know why the UK public voted LEAVE

[Jeremie Boop]

2 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Let's start from the beginning again, as I have a question for all you American's who are pro EU. If your president suggested the USA join a union where you put in a massive sum of money each year, and only get 40% of it back, be told that you have to let in immigrants from 27 other countries so they can take your jobs, and use all the services your taxes have paid for, and then be told endless regulations and laws will be introduced, that your country has no power over, how would you feel ????????????????

 

I think I know the answer, so perhaps you now know why the UK public voted LEAVE

Ummm.... United States? So, yeah, we are already part of a Union. Just saying. So we are kind of used to the Federal government regulating a lot of stuff. I'm not saying the situations are exactly the same or anything, just saying that for us to "imagine" we are in a union.

[Silent]

6 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Let's start from the beginning again, as I have a question for all you American's who are pro EU. If your president suggested the USA join a union where you put in a massive sum of money each year, and only get 40% of it back, be told that you have to let in immigrants from 27 other countries so they can take your jobs, and use all the services your taxes have paid for, and then be told endless regulations and laws will be introduced, that your country has no power over, how would you feel ????????????????

 

I think I know the answer, so perhaps you now know why the UK public voted LEAVE

Well, it's a good thing you are not giving the information a bit one-sided, otherwise people might think you are a steering towards a certain answer. Anyway, I'm very happy for you that now that you're leaving the EU, the goverment can spent more money on other things, and maybe cut down some of the taxes, since you don't lose 'a massive sum of money each year' anymore. Oh wait....

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, paininthenuts said:

Let's start from the beginning again, as I have a question for all you American's who are pro EU. If your president suggested the USA join a union where you put in a massive sum of money each year, and only get 40% of it back, be told that you have to let in immigrants from 27 other countries so they can take your jobs, and use all the services your taxes have paid for, and then be told endless regulations and laws will be introduced, that your country has no power over, how would you feel ????????????????

 

I think I know the answer, so perhaps you now know why the UK public voted LEAVE

We know exactly what it's like and you too will once your England becomes our 51st state.

 

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Ummm.... United States? So, yeah, we are already part of a Union. Just saying. So we are kind of used to the Federal government regulating a lot of stuff. I'm not saying the situations are exactly the same or anything, just saying that for us to "imagine" we are in a union.

Yes, exactly! What does he mean?

We're already paying a monster share of our taxes to the "federal" government in addition to our state taxes, sales taxes, food taxes, road taxes, other gasoline taxes and whatever taxes are charged to make and import the products we purchase which increase the base cost. On top of this, we and our employers are paying for social security and medicare. Oh, and for Obama"care".

[paininthenuts]

49 minutes ago, Lihu said:

We know exactly what it's like and you too will once your England becomes our 51st state.

 

Yes, exactly! What does he mean?

We're already paying a monster share of our taxes to the "federal" government in addition to our state taxes, sales taxes, food taxes, road taxes, other gasoline taxes and whatever taxes are charged to make and import the products we purchase which increase the base cost. On top of this, we and our employers are paying for social security and medicare. Oh, and for Obama"care".

Seriously, I would rather be the 51st state of the USA than the be in the EU. At least we have something in common, and it is my belief that the EU is more corrupt, albeit I am sure some of you may say otherwise

[Lihu]

13 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Seriously, I would rather be the 51st state of the USA than the be in the EU. At least we have something in common, and it is my belief that the EU is more corrupt, albeit I am sure some of you may say otherwise

I think many British share your sentiment, as our government was modeled after the British one without the monarchy, of course.

Many of us feel that our government is so big now that it overshadows it's original purpose. We are paying for programs we have absolutely nothing to gain from. Many are politically motivated, and sustained because everyone is afraid to do something about it. Trump is a political outsider and many of us are hoping will simply eliminate many of the more useless yet costly programs.

Any centralized government has some level of corruption. Local governments can be worse, but as we have 3 different major parts in our government the level of the corruption is mediated somewhat.

For sure, the United States will stand by its long time ally especially if Trump gets elected.

We will no matter what, but the Democrats tend to give in to emotional reactions from people more so than the Republicans. Unless, people actually read and understand more about why the English voted for Brexit, many of the more liberal leaning Democrats simply will assume that more British are racists which is simply not true.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 6/29/2016 at 0:57 AM, Lihu said:

Even the main proponents of Brexit were blindsided. They never thought it would pass. The prime minister who suggested the vote was dumbfounded to say the least. I find this entire situation summed up in two words "British humor" 

 

Irony in it's truest sense!

Meanwhile, those who were wringing their hands over what the markets would do should relax. The initial reaction from AMEX was smaller then I expected, and the second day's losses have already been recovered. It seems that nobody much gives a damn! GB did just fine before entering the EU, and unless the EU seeks t punish them unduly, They should do just as well going forward!

[paininthenuts]

16 hours ago, Lihu said:

I think many British share your sentiment, as our government was modeled after the British one without the monarchy, of course.

Many of us feel that our government is so big now that it overshadows it's original purpose. We are paying for programs we have absolutely nothing to gain from. Many are politically motivated, and sustained because everyone is afraid to do something about it. Trump is a political outsider and many of us are hoping will simply eliminate many of the more useless yet costly programs.

Any centralized government has some level of corruption. Local governments can be worse, but as we have 3 different major parts in our government the level of the corruption is mediated somewhat.

For sure, the United States will stand by its long time ally especially if Trump gets elected.

We will no matter what, but the Democrats tend to give in to emotional reactions from people more so than the Republicans. Unless, people actually read and understand more about why the English voted for Brexit, many of the more liberal leaning Democrats simply will assume that more British are racists which is simply not true.

I would be interested in knowing what the Americans think of the British regarding racism, as there was a comment earlier in this thread from someone who believes we are indeed racist. Of course, the word racism is very subjective. For example, I take everyone as an individual, and treat them as such. However, I believe many nations have their traits, and as such I may generalize from time to time. As a result of this some may say I am racist or xenophobic. 

It's my belief the UK is incredibly tolerant, in fact to tolerant, and has, as a result created problems for it's self. We have allowed people from other cultures to settle here in great numbers. Indefinitely these people huddle together and create societies within a society.  The problem being is that instead of raising their living standards to ours, they maintain the standards they had back in their own countries, and the next thing you know a ghetto is built. As a result of this many people feel resentful, and in some areas indigenous people feel like aliens in their own country. I am sure it can't be much different in the USA. 

The referendum was a great opportunity for many people to stick two fingers up at the establishment. Needless to say, there were other issues, but believe me, this was by far the largest of all. We, the people, have handed the government an opportunity to control immigration, but whether they take it is another question !!

[mcanadiens]

52 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

I would be interested in knowing what the Americans think of the British regarding racism, as there was a comment earlier in this thread from someone who believes we are indeed racist. Of course, the word racism is very subjective. For example, I take everyone as an individual, and treat them as such. However, I believe many nations have their traits, and as such I may generalize from time to time. As a result of this some may say I am racist or xenophobic. 

It's my belief the UK is incredibly tolerant, in fact to tolerant, and has, as a result created problems for it's self. We have allowed people from other cultures to settle here in great numbers. Indefinitely these people huddle together and create societies within a society.  The problem being is that instead of raising their living standards to ours, they maintain the standards they had back in their own countries, and the next thing you know a ghetto is built. As a result of this many people feel resentful, and in some areas indigenous people feel like aliens in their own country. I am sure it can't be much different in the USA. 

The referendum was a great opportunity for many people to stick two fingers up at the establishment. Needless to say, there were other issues, but believe me, this was by far the largest of all. We, the people, have handed the government an opportunity to control immigration, but whether they take it is another question !!

Racism is a relative sort of thing and I think there are a lot of worse places in the world for it. Part of what makes it tough to compare the situation in the UK and the US is that 1) there is a heck of a lot more land mass in the US and 2) we don't particularly feel tied to a community like the British seem to.

Here in the US, the wealthier people simply move away from the poor people, minorities or otherwise. It's actually a bit funny. For most of the previous century that meant moving away from the cities. Now that the poor people have largely abandoned inner-cities, wealthy people are gentrifying them and moving back there. Obviously, it isn't really practical for the British to do the same thing with the kind of population density you have over there. The fact that the British people are at such close quarters with so many recent immigrants understandably makes things a little more dicey.

[saevel25]

25 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

I would be interested in knowing what the Americans think of the British regarding racism, as there was a comment earlier in this thread from someone who believes we are indeed racist.

Do I think all of the people who voted for Brexit are racist, no. Do I think the people who show generalized hatred towards the people of an entire culture, race, ethnicity as racists, yes.  

I am sure there was a higher percentage of those people who voted for Brexit than against it. 

That being said, those who don't like immigration might not be racist. They might think economically and politically it would be better for stricter immigration laws. That is fine. 

27 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Of course, the word racism is very subjective.

No it's not. It is pretty defined

Quote

Racism is a product of the complex interaction in a given society of a race-based worldview with prejudice, stereotyping, and discrimination. Racism can be present in social actions, practices, or political systems (e.g., apartheid) that support the expression of prejudice or aversion in discriminatory practices.

 

38 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

 However, I believe many nations have their traits, and as such I may generalize from time to time. As a result of this some may say I am racist or xenophobic. 

Do cultures have their traits and tendencies, sure. No nation has 100% of their people adhere to 100% of their cultural views. As such you can't generalize about a person based on their ethnicity with out first getting to know them.  

That being said, making negative generalizations out of anger, hate, and ignorance about an individual based on their culture/ethnicity is racism.

[paininthenuts]

2 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Racism is a relative sort of thing and I think there are a lot of worse places in the world for it. Part of what makes it tough to compare the situation in the UK and the US is that 1) there is a heck of a lot more land mass in the US and 2) we don't particular feel tied to a community like the British seem to.

Here in the US, the wealthier people simply move away from the poor people, minorities or otherwise. It's actually a bit funny. For most of the previous century that meant moving away from the cities. Now that the poor people have largely abandoned inner-cities, wealthy people are gentrifying them and moving back there. Obviously, it isn't really practical for the British to do the same thing with the kind of population density you have over there. The fact that the British people are at such close quarters with so many recent immigrants understandably makes things a little more dicey.

What you say is absolutely true. The fact we have an NHS also makes a difference. The NHS is NOT free. Tax payers have supported it since it's conception, and understandably feel it shouldn't be used by anyone who happens to get on a plane and travel here. However, this is most certainly the case. Believe me, if you happen to break a leg, and get yourself to A&E, it can quite easily be 6 hours before you are seen. During this period you will see people from what appears to be every nation in the world, come through doors. 

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Do I think all of the people who voted for Brexit are racist, no. Do I think the people who show generalized hatred towards the people of an entire culture, race, ethnicity as racists, yes.  

I am sure there was a higher percentage of those people who voted for Brexit than against it. 

That being said, those who don't like immigration might not be racist. They might think economically and politically it would be better for stricter immigration laws. That is fine. 

No it's not. It is pretty defined

 

Do cultures have their traits and tendencies, sure. No nation has 100% of their people adhere to 100% of their cultural views. As such you can't generalize about a person based on their ethnicity with out first getting to know them.  

That being said, making negative generalizations out of anger, hate, and ignorance about an individual based on their culture/ethnicity is racism.

In the UK you would be referred to as liberal. That isn't an insult, it's just something that is quite rare over here, albeit it's the liberals who appear to get their own way most of the time. I find it strange that if I were to say "I like the Dutch" nobody would deride me for generalising, however if I were to say "I don't like Pakistanis" it wouldn't take someone very long to call me a racist. I also find quite annoying that society has told me I have to like everyone, unless they are are white and heterosexual, in which case I permitted to despise them. 

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

I would be interested in knowing what the Americans think of the British regarding racism, as there was a comment earlier in this thread from someone who believes we are indeed racist. Of course, the word racism is very subjective. For example, I take everyone as an individual, and treat them as such. However, I believe many nations have their traits, and as such I may generalize from time to time. As a result of this some may say I am racist or xenophobic. 

It's my belief the UK is incredibly tolerant, in fact to tolerant, and has, as a result created problems for it's self. We have allowed people from other cultures to settle here in great numbers. Indefinitely these people huddle together and create societies within a society.  The problem being is that instead of raising their living standards to ours, they maintain the standards they had back in their own countries, and the next thing you know a ghetto is built. As a result of this many people feel resentful, and in some areas indigenous people feel like aliens in their own country. I am sure it can't be much different in the USA. 

The referendum was a great opportunity for many people to stick two fingers up at the establishment. Needless to say, there were other issues, but believe me, this was by far the largest of all. We, the people, have handed the government an opportunity to control immigration, but whether they take it is another question !!

Well, my own feeling is it depends upon the individual and times have changed. My mother, who is not Taiwanese, was convinced that all English were racist. I found out myself, that while I was only sometimes called "different names" and that most people were good and fair in their treatment. I'm guessing it's mostly because they didn't know which racial slur to call me.

We have many ethnic pockets in the Los Angeles area, and then we have places like New York where everything is now fused together. I saw many more mixed couples in New York now than I remember 3 decades ago. In fact, it seems the normal thing there, and everyone identifies themselves as "New Yorker". Los Angeles is kind of the opposite, but possibly changing?

I live in an ethnic pocket, but not by choice, actually. We just happened to purchase our home here 2 to 3 decades ago and suddenly many more people of "half my ethnicity" showed up and started living here. There were fights between the races and ethnicities. Some people on both sides even wondered where I "stood" on topics and I just kind of. . .walked on. . .trying to avoid the topic.

Ordinances were set up to force every business to use signs in English as well as the native languages. The town literally went from less than 7% Asian to 55% in those years, and we got our first Taiwanese mayor. Not sure if this is good or bad, but many of my old neighbors moved out as the price of homes started to rise substantially.

I pretty much understand both points of view.

People mostly pocket themselves like that generally because of the older members of their families or because they are first generation immigrants themselves. These people don't speak English and thus are more comfortable living with their native tongues.

It's kind of like the ex-pat community in Hong Kong. They mostly cluster around the New Territories, Stanley and Sai Kung.

People just cluster where they feel comfortable.

My personal experiences are that I don't seem to fit into any particular niche, and most people think I'm the wrong race anyway. Most can't tell, and almost everyone gets it wrong. Before, I looked mostly Asian, so people assumed that I was, and now that there are 55% Asian they think I'm not Asian.

So, in my experience, there are Xenophobes in every race. No one is different than anyone else. As I've said, I have the unique experience of not looking like any one exact race and have experienced pretty much everything.

[saevel25]

3 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

I find it strange that if I were to say "I like the Dutch" nobody would deride me for generalizing, however if I were to say "I don't like Pakistanis" it wouldn't take someone very long to call me a racist. 

The correct thinking would be you like the Dutch people you have met so far. That doesn't mean you will not have a bad interaction with a Dutch person later and that might shape your view of them. You are projecting your limited interaction with a person's ethnicity to their entire population. 

All generalizing is doing is projecting what ever experience or knowledge you think you have of an ethnicity upon an entire group of people who have done nothing to warrant that. 

What if I had a bad interaction with a UK person. Should I just generalize about you because your from the UK? Do you think you deserve such negative generalizations even though I have never met you or have gotten to know you? 

[paininthenuts]

LOL. After discussing this subject I thought it would be a good idea to see what you all think about Trump, so I started a thread. It has now been taken off. Now, that is political correctness gone mad. The man may end up your president, but we aren't allowed to talk about him. I presume your mods are democrats. For the record, I believe he is just what the world needs

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

For the record, I believe he is just what the world needs

Good for you, but Trump is off-topic here. This is about Brexit, not Trump. 

[paininthenuts]

54 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The correct thinking would be you like the Dutch people you have met so far. That doesn't mean you will not have a bad interaction with a Dutch person later and that might shape your view of them. You are projecting your limited interaction with a person's ethnicity to their entire population. 

All generalizing is doing is projecting what ever experience or knowledge you think you have of an ethnicity upon an entire group of people who have done nothing to warrant that. 

What if I had a bad interaction with a UK person. Should I just generalize about you because your from the UK? Do you think you deserve such negative generalizations even though I have never met you or have gotten to know you? 

So if I meet ten nice Dutch people, and one areshole, I should think the same about them as I do Pakistanis, even if I have met ten aresholes and one nice person ?

Like it or not people generalise about everything, and ethnicity isn't, and shouldn't be any different. Political correctness has dictated  that all nations and people are equal, whereas the reality is far different. For example, there are nations like the Swiss I look up to because they have secured a high standard of living for themselves, by both clever political decisions, and hard work. On the other hand i look down on many African nations because of their corrupt politics and lazy backward people. This may shock you, but the vast majority of people think just like this, and aren't concerned about being branded racist or xenophobic. If you were to generalize about people from the UK, I would have no problem with that at all, however, if you were to insult me directly, I may take offense. Part of the problem is that people in the western world have become far to sensitive. 

To be honest, my son thinks just like you, and for this reason we steer well away from politics. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by paininthenuts

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, paininthenuts said:

So if I meet ten nice Dutch people, and one areshole, I should think the same about them as I do Pakistanis, even if I have met ten aresholes and one nice person ?

Like it or not people generalise about everything, and ethnicity isn't, and shouldn't be any different. Political correctness has dictated  that all nations and people are equal, whereas the reality is far different. For example, there are nations like the Swiss I look up to because they have secured a high standard of living for themselves, by both clever political decisions, and hard work. On the other hand i look down on many African nations because of their corrupt politics and lazy backward people. This may shock you, but the vast majority of people think just like this, and aren't concerned about being branded racist or xenophobic. If you were to generalize about people from the UK, I would have no problem with that at all, however, if you were to insult me directly, I may take offense. Part of the problem is that people in the western world have become far to sensitive. 

To be honest, my son thinks just like you, and for this reason we steer well away from politics. 

This is an unfortunate perception, and does not surprise me. However, most of the African Americans I know are pretty hard working individuals who lead quite lives in the suburbs. You don't see nor hear about them, though. Many have been racially profiled by local law enforcement for the very reasons you mentioned, even though a good number of cops are African American. Go figure. . .