Slope & Rating - I Get Lower Differentials from Shorter Tees

[Cartboy]

25 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This makes sense, but I really think it depends upon why someone is a 16.

For instance, if someone is a solid hitter, but can't drive more than 200 yards, then playing a more difficult courses would only lead to a higher score by rating/slope.

 

I resemble that.  After my tee shots, one of my regulars normally says, "I don't know why we even bother," because it is always going to the same place.

I no longer get "intimidated" playing longer tees.  I know I can't hit long enough to get to the position meant to get to, so I am "resigned", not "intimidated."

Although I'm "resigned", and know some 4s are 5s and some 5s are 6s for me, that does not make it fun.  After more than 50 years of playing the game, I can't even begin to describe how fun it was last week to play 5366/118.  For this Bogey golfer, it's a BIG deal to move up 25 yards on each hole!!!!  (Maybe a scratch golfer would not understand that.)

Speaking of fun, the course is not the only factor, as many online reviews reveal.  Sometimes not even the most important factor if the day is ruined before you even get to the first tee.  But that's another topic.

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

I resemble that.  After my tee shots, one of my regulars normally says, "I don't know why we even bother," because it is always going to the same place.

I no longer get "intimidated" playing longer tees.  I know I can't hit long enough to get to the position meant to get to, so I am "resigned", not "intimidated."

Although I'm "resigned", and know some 4s are 5s and some 5s are 6s for me, that does not make it fun.  After more than 50 years of playing the game, I can't even begin to describe how fun it was last week to play 5366/118.  For this Bogey golfer, it's a BIG deal to move up 25 yards on each hole!!!!  (Maybe a scratch golfer would not understand that.)

Speaking of fun, the course is not the only factor, as many online reviews reveal.  Sometimes not even the most important factor if the day is ruined before you even get to the first tee.  But that's another topic.

Senior par!

Our longer course is 6000 yards for ladies, 6400 yards for whites, 6700 yards for Blue and 7300 yards for gold (at about 500 to 600 feet elevation). Many seniors play Blues one over par per hole without slowing PoP. They still enjoy it.

[Cartboy]

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

Senior par!

Our longer course is 6000 yards for ladies, 6400 yards for whites, 6700 yards for Blue and 7300 yards for gold (at about 500 to 600 feet elevation). Many seniors play Blues one over par per hole without slowing PoP. They still enjoy it.

Before I tweaked it, the "Men's" tees at my course were 6300/130, 6700/132, 7000/132, and 7300/135.  Plus it is narrow, lots of woods, water, creeks, and bunkers with heavy sand.  Plus very tough greens, most of them protected in the front. Plus, lots of radical elevation changes.

At the most popular other local course, the one I used to play, and the one that everyone was supposed to leave to come to this new course, Whites (the most played tee) is 5710/122.

& the course owners wondered why they were losing money in an area that is mostly Seniors.  Well, actually, no, they weren't.   

&, no, no one from my former course came to the new one.

Seniors buy a retirement home in a golf community because they want to have fun playing golf almost every day, not because they want to beat themselves up and get upset.

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Cartboy

[iacas]

Even at those yardages and slopes the course rating plays a role in the "difficulty" of the course.

Even for the bogey golfer.

Heck the Slope is actually derived from two course ratings. The slope is the slope of the line connecting those two ratings.

Really, we could be sharing the two course ratings to determine "difficulty."

[Cartboy]

Scratch Golfer: A male scratch golfer is a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses. A male scratch golfer, for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots.

Bogey Golfer:   A male bogey golfer is a player who has a Course Handicap™ of approximately 20 on a course of standard difficulty. He can hit tee shots an average of 200 yards and can reach a 370-yard hole in two shots at sea level.

USGA Course Rating:  A USGA Course Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for scratch golfers under normal course and weather conditions. It is expressed as the number of strokes taken to one decimal place (72.5), and is based on yardage and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring difficulty of the scratch golfer.

Bogey Rating™:   A Bogey Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for bogey golfers under normal course and weather conditions. It is expressed as the number of strokes taken to one decimal place (92.1), and is based on yardage and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring difficulty of the bogey golfer.

Slope Rating®: A Slope Rating is the USGA® mark that indicates the measurement of the relative playing difficulty of a course for players who are not scratch golfers, compared to scratch golfers.  It is computed from the difference between the Bogey Rating and the USGA Course Rating times a constant factor and is expressed as a whole number from 55 to 155.

The rating process requires a study of each hole, including detailed data obtained at all landing zones for both the scratch and the bogey golfer. The rating teams use the average shot lengths for both scratch and bogey golfers to determine the landing zones. Length corrections and obstacle values are considered at each landing zone.

& much more here:

http://www.usga.org/handicapping-articles/course-rating-primer-e5bf725f.html

 

 

[iacas]

@Cartboy, I know that stuff. It parallels what I've been saying. The slope is determined by two ratings. Two points. They define the line.

I'm the course rating captain for my section and have been rating courses for over a decade.

Even to a 16.2 index golfer a 73.4/128 course will often feel "more difficult" than a 71.1/136 course.

Especially if both have the same total par.

[Cartboy]

I believe this horse is sufficiently dead that it can endure another beating.

Having taken the time to study the history and science of Rating and Slope, and to understand that Slope is something trying to account for the difficulty of a course/tee setting for a "Bogey Golfer" relative to a "Par Golfer", and factoring in that I am very, very close to the USGA's definition of a "Bogey Golfer", score and shot-length wise, I find that my OP is valid, that I should expect for Slope and Rating to reconcile my scores back to my Index, m/l, and that I must be an "outlier", more affected by Slope and Rating than the norm.

Works for me.

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

Having taken the time to study the history and science of Rating and Slope, and to understand that Slope is something trying to account for the difficulty of a course/tee setting for a "Bogey Golfer" relative to a "Par Golfer", and factoring in that I am very, very close to the USGA's definition of a "Bogey Golfer", score and shot-length wise, I find that my OP is valid, that I should expect for Slope and Rating to reconcile my scores back to my Index, m/l, and that I must be an "outlier", more affected by Slope and Rating than the norm.

Yes, that's what people said from the outset.

Golf is too complex a game to expect two numbers to accurately account for the variances in every player's game. Some players will play better on certain courses or with certain setups, even though the course rating and slope may indicate that the general population will do otherwise.

There is no perfect "scratch" or perfect "bogey" golfer. To that end, we're all a sort of "outlier."