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34 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not one thing in the post you just made addressed the topic of how firmly a player grips the club.

Furthermore, you seem to have glossed over the bits where you accused me of "attacking" you and "doing a disservice to the game" and not having the credentials to discuss this.

The rest is off topic, but I wanted to respond, so…

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Good players don't "turn in a barrel."

JackBarrel.jpgRoseBarrel.jpgHoganBarrel.jpgTigerBarrel.jpg

I teach "feels" all day. But I understand the mechanics, the physics, and what good players are actually doing.

Tiger, Ben, Jack, and Justin all just busted out of their barrels.

That's bogus reasoning. Very few people know the golf swing. And… what works for you may not work for someone else.

Then why don't you just tell yourself to hit it flush every time? Why are you still a 7.3 index?

It matters. The backswing is responsible for getting the club into A position from which you can deliver the club to hit the ball effectively.

I said "a" position and not "the" position because there are a lot of ways to swing the club… but a player who is really laid off and rolls the club well across the line at the top is going to have a harder time doing something with his downswing than a player who finds "a" better position at the top.

Ditto with what a player does with his body during the backswing. Taught a kid today whose torso leaned 20° toward the target at the top of the backswing. He's kinda screwed from there. We worked on his backswing.

The backswing matters.

No, it's not.

Some parts are. Other parts are not. I'm not really a big fan of blanket statements like this. Undoubtedly I could find parts of your own swing that you do intuitively, and parts that you need to do counter-intuitively.

Another blanket statement.

Now, to be clear, this is all off topic, and further discussion of this is not really allowed. This topic is about how firm you grip the club. It's NOT about whatever the above is about. As the owner, I get the perk of being the last to respond. Sorry, it's my site. 😄 We do try to keep things on topic here, though:

Welcome to TST. Stick around, open your mind, and discuss things with respect for others. Try to read the OP so you know what you're discussing, too.

And please… no more of the "weightless" stuff. That was just really, really bad.

Don't tell me what grip pressure to use.  Get off your high horse dude...you are not the grip expert for me.  

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Where did @onthehunt526 do that? The word "must" does not even appear in the post you quoted.

Great. The topic isn't one that you need to worry about, then.

Some number of golfers, however, in gripping the club lightly and then - out of necessity - changing the grip pressure throughout the swing, end up causing problems for themselves. This topic is oriented at them - at letting them know that they can grip the club firmly, despite what many people say, and play good golf.

That's it.

This topic was not started to tell you what to do.

It was started to point out that, whether people know it or not, players are not gripping the club "like holding a baby bird" throughout the golf swing.

This topic has certainly taught players that it's okay to grip the club more firmly than they've been told.

And what is one to do when their "body and subconscious" don't just magically figure out what's required?

That has nothing to do with this.

And yet… you almost certainly grip the club more firmly in transition:

grippressure3.jpggrippressure2.jpggrippressure1.jpg

Those graphs come from Sasho Mackenzie. They show:

  • That the golfers in those studies gripped the club much more firmly at the top and during parts of the downswing than they did at setup.
  • That the golfers in those studies would have crushed the heck out of a baby bird, had they been holding one instead of a golf grip.

I extended an olive branch...but that didn't work....because nobody knows anything but you. ...

Breaking news from the obvious desk!  Grip pressure increases at the transition!.  Gee, why's that?  Does it have anything to do with the weight of the club traveling one way while the body is transitioning against the weight the other way?  I don't know...let's look at some charts!  This is more insidious than the "Arm Swing" video. 

I've NEVER had a teacher tell me I'm full of garbage.  In fact, I've had lengthy discussions with them regarding how to tap-into getting folks to "let go", let the subconscious play a role in the golf swing.  Your teachings would be best suited to robots. Plus my pro played in the U.S. Open last year  He has adopted my "insane" accomplishments into his curriculum, and he uses me for demonstrations. He wanted to know if I would be inerested in co-authoring a book with him, and do a series of videos.  But of course he's an idiot...right?

This is what's causing a decline in golf...over-instruction...and bad instruction.  People make livings off "bad golf".  There's so many "guru's" trying to fight for relevance to the point they feel compelled to invent controversial "tips" to generate "clicks" by taking what works, and flipping it to "it might not work".  Then heads explode and the clicks come in.

I don't tell others what to do, how to think, how to feel, I relate my own experiences...in an open forum...or so I thought.  If that makes anyone uncomfortable then I must be hitting home.  Otherwise, I implore folks to go to the range, just let go, relax...just swing, forget all the nonsense.  You already know more than you think you do.

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In the past I've brushed stuff like this under the rug. I let posts like the one below remain one-sided. I didn't air what I thought was akin to dirty laundry out in public, because I didn't think it did any good.

But this silence simply lead to more people, seeing no response from me, to hear one side of things.

So the past few years I've changed that policy a little. I'll occasionally respond to posts like the one below. Sometimes in a PM. Sometimes, like here, publicly. Just so that, on the record, people can see a second side of things.

The above was original posted here:


2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Don't tell me what grip pressure to use.  Get off your high horse dude...you are not the grip expert for me.

I've literally never done that. Neither did @onthehunt526. In fact, I said:

3 hours ago, iacas said:

This topic was not started to tell you what to do.

I've literally - and I don't use that word to mean the opposite - never told you how to grip the club. Your claim is 100% false. The topic is six years old.

You seem to have a habit of thinking that "people telling you what to do" is actually happening:

On 4/28/2018 at 4:22 PM, Golflivesmatter said:

I can't even imagine telling someone to think about 100 LBS of force...it's beyond useless information.

That, too, was not something I've ever told someone to do. It's simply what actually happens during a golf swing. It's a fact. There are thousands and thousands of "facts" I could share about the golf swing - I can't think of the last time I told a player to "think of [a fact]" during the golf swing.

Completely bogus of you @Golflivesmatter.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I extended an olive branch...but that didn't work....because nobody knows anything but you. ...

Where was the olive branch? Was it when you were claiming to have been attacked? Was it when you were asserting that I lacked credentials? Was it when you told me that physics wasn't a science? Was it when you told me that swinging a five pound weight around your body makes it weightless?

I've never said or implied that I know everything and nobody else knows anything. Not once.

You demonstrated something with your "weightless" bit. You demonstrated something with your false claims about having been attacked or being told how you should grip the club.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Breaking news from the obvious desk!  Grip pressure increases at the transition!. Gee, why's that? Does it have anything to do with the weight of the club traveling one way while the body is transitioning against the weight the other way? I don't know...let's look at some charts!

That's neither here nor there. We weren't discussing when grip pressure increases, when it decreases, or anything like what you've just typed.

The charts demonstrate how firmly players grip the club. The chart demonstrates the entire premise of the topic, what it's actually here to do: to demonstrate to players that you don't grip the club as if you're holding a baby bird in your hands.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

This is more insidious than the "Arm Swing" video.

Uh, you've apparently still not figured out what that topic and video demonstrate. That video is not a "method" or a "swing" (notice there's no ball, I'm not even holding a club, and I make two other kinds of swings later in the video). The text above and below it clearly tells the reader what the context is: that the arms contribute significantly to the clubhead speed, and that the Paul Wilson idea that the arms are "passive" is bogus - the arms contribute (through "effort") significantly to the clubhead speed.

This is all very clear to someone who takes two minutes to read the post. Or 30 seconds to read the first paragraph or two.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I've NEVER had a teacher tell me I'm full of garbage.

Once again, that literally - and once again I'm not using that word to mean the opposite of its original definition - did not happen here, either. You cannot find such an instance of that happening because, again, it literally did not occur.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

In fact, I've had lengthy discussions with them regarding how to tap-into getting folks to "let go", let the subconscious play a role in the golf swing. Your teachings would be best suited to robots.

You have no idea how I teach. On the topic of grip pressure, you've said:

On 4/28/2018 at 4:22 PM, Golflivesmatter said:

I can't even imagine telling someone to think about 100 LBS of force...it's beyond useless information.

And I've said:

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I'll add this, which is something I thought about this morning: I don't remember the last time I ever talked about someone's grip pressure in a golf lesson.

You've got no idea in the world how I teach golf. Some of the forum members here do. I'd have you ask them, but you won't - you've likely made up your mind, facts be damned, regardless of what people have actually said…

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Plus my pro played in the U.S. Open last year

Players far, far better than your pro have gotten things wrong before. Hell, we spent decades thinking that the ball starts along the clubhead's path, not that the face has the most influence.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

He has adopted my "insane" accomplishments into his curriculum, and he uses me for demonstrations. He wanted to know if I would be inerested in co-authoring a book with him, and do a series of videos.  But of course he's an idiot...right?

Nobody called you or him an idiot. Again - literally never happened.

To the idea of credentials or qualifications, again, I'll quote something I've said in a few forms:

20 hours ago, iacas said:

I don’t even care about “qualifications.” If you’re a nobody, but have good information and insights and respond to points made and argue your side well, that’s awesome. I’ll listen and engage and discuss with you.

If you’re a nobody with good information then you’re not a nobody. You’re somebody worth talking to.

I judge people on the merits of what they're saying. Not that they once qualified for a U.S. Open. But if you care (putting in a spoiler because even I don't really care about this stuff):

Spoiler
  • I coach a seven-time (consecutive) conference championship and NCAA National Championship participating golf team (we also set the all-time conference record this year at our championship, and our "B" team lost to only three teams this year: twice to our "A" team and once to another college. They were 15-3… with, again, two of those losses being to our "A" team).
  • I'm on Golf Digest's Best Young Teachers in America list.
  • I'm on Golf Digest's Best in State list.
  • I hold three degrees, including two in the sciences.
  • As Director of Instructor Development for 5SK, I've trained over 100 instructors in 5 Simple Keys®, a system that produced a DVD that was the best-selling golf instructional DVD on the market for over 3.5 years.
  • I've co-authored a book that has sold nearly 20,000 copies and continues to be sold at a high rate, several years after its introduction, with global partnerships you'll likely hear about in 2018.
  • I've coached players at every level - PGA Tour, European, LPGA, D1, D2, D3.
  • I'm a better golfer than you. And I'm not saying that to be snobby, but only because you mentioned that you got down into the low 80s or something, as part of your qualifications, and you just wrote down about your pro playing in the U.S. Open (I've also coached at least seven people who have played in national championships). So if you care about ability to play golf, that's why I'm mentioning it.

Here's the thing… I don't care about any of that, and neither should most anyone else. They should care about whether:

  • I can back up what I'm saying with facts, knowledge, common sense, whatever. This is relevant when talking swing theory, really - this kind of stuff almost never comes up in a lesson.
  • What I tell them as an instructor leads to their improvement.

That's it. Those are the only things that actually matter.

The grip pressure topic is a "theory" topic. It discusses the actual mechanics, or what people actually do. Again:

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I'll add this, which is something I thought about this morning: I don't remember the last time I ever talked about someone's grip pressure in a golf lesson.

Moving on…

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

This is what's causing a decline in golf...over-instruction...and bad instruction.

Some shorter answers here:

  • You have absolutely no idea how I teach golf. None. Zip. Zilch. No idea at all.
  • Very few people actually take lessons. I think it's a stretch to blame it - "instruction" - for the "decline" in golf. Instruction, I could argue, was much worse in the late 90s and early 2000s, and golf was booming then. I think economics and other things play a much larger role in whether golf "declines" or not.
2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

People make livings off "bad golf".  There's so many "guru's" trying to fight for relevance to the point they feel compelled to invent controversial "tips" to generate "clicks" by taking what works, and flipping it to "it might not work".  Then heads explode and the clicks come in.

How's that relevant to the discussion of what golfers actually do?

It's not a controversial "tip" at all. It's a simple fact. It's intent is to help people who think that they have to try to swing the club while holding onto it like it's a baby bird of which they've grown fond (and thus don't want to crush with 250 Newtons of force or something).

If you think that a topic sharing the facts of the matter behind grip pressure is clickbait… man, I don't know what to tell you.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I don't tell others what to do, how to think, how to feel, I relate my own experiences...

Nor have I. Do what you want.

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

If that makes anyone uncomfortable then I must be hitting home.

I'm not uncomfortable. Why would I be? Seriously… what have you done that could possibly make me uncomfortable?

If you're discussing the shape of the earth and someone argues that it's flat, like a sheet of paper, does that make you uncomfortable? No, right?

Peace out.

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  • iacas changed the title to Golflivesmatter Stuff
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It would never dawn on me to join a forum and assume I know more than all the forum members. It has to take considerable ego to assume, without reading many posts or being a member for a while, that I know more than all the forum members. It takes a long time to understand that background and experience of forum members.

@Golflivesmatter, you’ve only been here a short time and only had 17 posts. You haven’t read many posts and seem to assume you know more than everyone here or at least that is how your posts come across.  There are many very good golfers on this site. There are also a few outstanding instructors. Most of us are here to learn, get better at golf and mostly talk about golf. Most of us read other’s posts and try to understand what they are saying. You seem to just be here to pick a fight. 

I don’t understand why you joined this forum in the first place. You’re not an instructor, you don’t really join in other site areas. All your posts are in a couple of threads. You are not posting in the Tour section or Golf Talk or anywhere else. Why are you here?

If I’m wrong, let me know. But it sure seems that way. 

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(edited)
On 4/29/2018 at 5:04 PM, boogielicious said:

It would never dawn on me to join a forum and assume I know more than all the forum members. It has to take considerable ego to assume, without reading many posts or being a member for a while, that I know more than all the forum members. It takes a long time to understand that background and experience of forum members.

@Golflivesmatter, you’ve only been here a short time and only had 17 posts. You haven’t read many posts and seem to assume you know more than everyone here or at least that is how your posts come across.  There are many very good golfers on this site. There are also a few outstanding instructors. Most of us are here to learn, get better at golf and mostly talk about golf. Most of us read other’s posts and try to understand what they are saying. You seem to just be here to pick a fight. 

I don’t understand why you joined this forum in the first place. You’re not an instructor, you don’t really join in other site areas. All your posts are in a couple of threads. You are not posting in the Tour section or Golf Talk or anywhere else. Why are you here?

If I’m wrong, let me know. But it sure seems that way. 

17 posts and OUT I guess.  I don't know "more" than anyone else...I relate what I do....what makes sense for me...and based on 35 years of golf,  competitive golf, and help from top golf instructors...including citing books and videos that support my approach.  I can't make anything up about the golf swing because it's a finite movement based on efficient body movement....like an MLB pitcher throwing a baseball....same logic.

Edited by Golflivesmatter
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So...one more post.  On another forum...not TST...a guy posted that he is trying to help new golfers.  I posted the below link to a video by Erika Larkin.  The response from the "swing guru", in a DM, was "stop posting videos that don't help people".  You guys be the judge.  Was my post off-limits?

 

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@Golflivesmatter what is the point of the last two posts?-You do not seem to have understood that you have lied and made stuff up. That you can not read what other people wrote.

I am really old and could still give you four strokes a side and kick your butt up and down any golf course you can pick. Does that mean I know more than you? No.

There are a lot of ways to teach.-There are a lot of good instructors who disagree with things.-Does not make your stuff right and everyone else wrong.

43 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I relate what I do....what makes sense for me...and based on 35 years of golf,  competitive golf, and help from top golf instructors...including citing books and videos that support my approach.  I can't make anything up about the golf swing because it's a finite movement based on efficient body movement....like an MLB pitcher throwing a baseball....same logic. 

Competitive golf?-Dude you are a 7.3 index and from your posts you never even noted really regularly breaking 80. Competitive golf?

And you do not relate "what you do." What golfers actually do is grip the club really quite firmly. They do not grip the club lightly. What golfers actually do is expend a tremendous amount of effort with their arms. They do not turn their body and let their arms swing along like whips effortlessly following the body.

You do not know what you are talking about.

@iacas respects anyone with good information.-You do not seem to have any. You give massive weight to FEELS and not WHAT IS REAL.

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Just now, Phil McGleno said:

@Golflivesmatter what is the point of the last two posts?-You do not seem to have understood that you have lied and made stuff up. That you can not read what other people wrote.

I am really old and could still give you four strokes a side and kick your butt up and down any golf course you can pick. Does that mean I know more than you? No.

There are a lot of ways to teach.-There are a lot of good instructors who disagree with things.-Does not make your stuff right and everyone else wrong.

Competitive golf?-Dude you are a 7.3 index and from your posts you never even noted really regularly breaking 80. Competitive golf?

And you do not relate "what you do." What golfers actually do is grip the club really quite firmly. They do not grip the club lightly. What golfers actually do is expend a tremendous amount of effort with their arms. They do not turn their body and let their arms swing along like whips effortlessly following the body.

You do not know what you are talking about.

@iacas respects anyone with good information.-You do not seem to have any. You give massive weight to FEELS and not WHAT IS REAL.

Whatever...I've been warned...I'm not allowed to defend myself.  You're right.   My competitive golf years were long ago, you know, before age slowed me down.  Yes, you're right, I have no clue about my grip...others need to tell me what I'm doing.  Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer are idiots.  White flag....I'm an idiot.

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51 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

and help from top golf instructors...including citing books and videos that support my approach

And if you look around you'll find top golf instructors saying things that are very nearly the opposite.

Mike Bender will tell his better players to move the clubhead and the arms the most, the earliest, and the fastest. He's had success, too. Who's "right"? Bender or Ernest Jones? Neither? Both?

The point I've continually made is that I'm interested in what golfers actually do. Not what they feel, but what they actually do.

53 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I can't make anything up about the golf swing because it's a finite movement based on efficient body movement....like an MLB pitcher throwing a baseball....same logic.

Golfers - and baseball players - can have wildly different swings/throwing motions. There's no one "efficient body movement" for everyone.

1 minute ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Whatever...I've been warned...I'm not allowed to defend myself.

Sure you are.

You aren't allowed to make up "attacks" or lie, as you did before, though. You aren't allowed to question my credentials when yours are limited to (as far as I can tell) "played D3 college golf," "occasionally breaks 80," and "might help someone write a book some day."

Like I said, I don't care about qualifications. I care about quality of information.

1 minute ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I'm an idiot.

Hey, you said it.

Nobody else here has.

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No I can't respond because if I post what I think you have control over my posts.  I get it, there are rules. It just tells me everything about this thread.  Thought control...and the luxury of telling folks who relate their swing that they are "lying"?  OMG.  WOW!

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20 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

So...one more post.  On another forum...not TST...a guy posted that he is trying to help new golfers.  I posted the below link to a video by Erika Larkin.  The response from the "swing guru", in a DM, was "stop posting videos that don't help people".  You guys be the judge.  Was my post off-limits?

 

I'm not sure what you're saying or who you're talking about. Did someone at another site tell you to stop posting videos that don't help? If so, that seems like it's their prerogative to share that opinion.

Anyway, if "feeling the club head" helps some people, great. It doesn't do much of anything for me and I've tried it. If it helped in any way - even a little, don't you think I'd use the feel every time I played?

Since the thought and "drill" in the video are so incredibly easy, why are there so many players like me out there? It may not be completely useless, but it's not going to provide the help I need.

@Golflivesmatter, I have no stake in any pissing contest you have with others. I don't automatically agree with what others post on this forum because everyone is a little bit different and what works for most does not work for everyone. But that doesn't mean I think they are wrong about what works for most.

3 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I have no clue about my grip...others need to tell me what I'm doing.

I don't think anyone told you to tighten your grip. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but in the few pages I've read, you seem hellbent on suggesting that others should adopt a looser grip.

Pick your battles, enjoy the game you have, and don't worry about whether anyone agrees with you or not.

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3 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

No I can't respond because if I post what I think you have control over my posts.

That doesn't make any sense. You can post what you want. If it's against the Rules of the forum, our moderator @The Committee may step in. Otherwise… post what you have to say.

3 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Thought control...and the luxury of telling folks who relate their swing that they are "lying"?  OMG.  WOW!

We didn't say you lied about what you think you're doing in your swing. You lied about other things. You lied about being "attacked." You lied about "people" telling you how YOU need to grip the club. You lied about several other things.

Just now, JonMA1 said:

I don't think anyone told you to tighten your grip. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but in the few pages I've read, you seem hellbent on suggesting that others should adopt a looser grip.

You're correct - nobody told him to adopt a tighter grip.

Just now, JonMA1 said:

Pick your battles, enjoy the game you have, and don't worry about whether anyone agrees with you or not.

And, stop lying about things. Really doesn't play well here.

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1 minute ago, JonMA1 said:

I'm not sure what you're saying or who you're talking about. Did someone at another site tell you to stop posting videos that don't help? If so, that seems like it's their prerogative to share that opinion.

Anyway, if "feeling the club head" helps some people, great. It doesn't do much of anything for me and I've tried it. If it helped in any way - even a little, don't you think I'd use the feel every time I played?

Since the thought and "drill" in the video are so incredibly easy, why are there so many players like me out there? It may not be completely useless, but it's not going to provide the help I need.

@Golflivesmatter, I have no stake in any pissing contest you have with others. I don't automatically agree with what others post on this forum because everyone is a little bit different and what works for most does not work for everyone. But that doesn't mean I think they are wrong about what works for most.

I don't think anyone told you to tighten your grip. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but in the few pages I've read, you seem hellbent on suggesting that others should adopt a looser grip.

Pick your battles, enjoy the game you have, and don't worry about whether anyone agrees with you or not.

Well I "thought" this forum was an open discussion.    

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

That doesn't make any sense. You can post what you want. If it's against the Rules of the forum, our moderator @The Committee may step in. Otherwise… post what you have to say.

We didn't say you lied about what you think you're doing in your swing. You lied about other things. You lied about being "attacked." You lied about "people" telling you how YOU need to grip the club. You lied about several other things.

You're correct - nobody told him to adopt a tighter grip.

And, stop lying about things. Really doesn't play well here.

What did I lie about?  Coming from a golf teacher that's pretty stout.

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1 minute ago, Golflivesmatter said:

What did I lie about?  Coming from a golf teacher that's pretty stout.

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

We didn't say you lied about what you think you're doing in your swing. You lied about other things. You lied about being "attacked." You lied about "people" telling you how YOU need to grip the club. You lied about several other things.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

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1 minute ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Read through the posts...accused of lying constantly.  

Your reading comprehension sucks.

Seriously, WTF?

You asked "What did I lie about?" I quoted myself listing a few of the things about which you lied.

I'm done. You're not worth the time or effort. Take care.

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your reading comprehension sucks.

 

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Your reading comprehension sucks.

Seriously, WTF?

You asked "What did I lie about?" I quoted myself listing a few of the things about which you lied.

I'm done. You're not worth the time or effort. Take care.

It's an unfair fight.  You can delete my posts...but...attack me at will.  Must be fun.  And I think others reading these posts are fearful of expressing any opinions after seeing this mob attack.

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  • Posts

    • Have an old SC that's apparently been cut off, shaft band says 34" but measures 33"and it feels pretty good. 
    • Very good. Always nice to get a club that works.
    • Had two chip-in birdies today on difficult par-3 holes. The first one was a bit lucky. The course was absolutely drenched due to heavy rains, and the hole was cut at a low point on the green. My pitch shot would have rolled 10-15 feet past the hole under normal conditions, but the water on the green killed the speed and the ball one hopped into the hole. The second one was actually a good shot. I was on an upslope with the green above me, and hit a perfectly weighted pitch that landed on a downslope and rolled into the hole, which was cut on a well drained part of the green.
    • I’ve always been intrigued by hickory golf. There’s a guy I see sometimes playing hickories with the full getup and it it looks like tons of fun. I’d love to get a starter set, but not interested in restoration, and no clue where to even begin. 
    • Day 117 (24 Oct 21) - P3-P4 work with the 8i using Birdie Balls to complete the swing move focusing as well on keeping the weight forward.  Resulting ball flight bordered on a slight draw.  
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. anhthinhspkt
      anhthinhspkt
      (26 years old)
    2. DARTSO
      DARTSO
      (41 years old)
    3. davem1955
      davem1955
      (66 years old)
    4. matteson83
      matteson83
      (38 years old)

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