Why Would I Not Play the Longest, Most Forgiving Irons?

[ColeThornton]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

So I read this...

I think some explaining is needed here. I’m not very knowledgeable in this area. What makes you think a GI club will give you those GI features if the offset was gone?

Because the offset is only one of "many" features in a GI/SGI iron.   They have cavity backs for perimeter weighting.   Some now are even hollow like the Ping G700s.   Most of the new ones feature a face that flexes which increases ball speed for more distance.   Along with the cavity backs or hollow design, this frees up weight to be used in specific areas of the club to also enhance performance.   There are many features in GI irons that would still work just fine without the offset.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

There are many features in GI irons that would still work just fine without the offset.

You don't know that.

Look, at the end of the day, clubs exist on a spectrum from the least forgiving to the most. You're asking for a club that occupies two separate spots on the spectrum.

Clubs are designed as wholes. Features complement each other, and there are tradeoffs. While I'm sure there are some "forgiving" irons that have less offset than others… you seem to want almost no offset, which isn't even really seen in musclebacks.

[ColeThornton]

" Also, again, GI irons aren't really for "better players."

Then why are so many tour players using clubs with GI features?

Gear Talk: Rickie Fowler on Cobra's new King F9 lineup

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In the latest 'Gear Talk,' Rickie Fowler offers up insight on Cobra's new King F9 lineup, the reason behind those tungsten slugs in his irons and how...

"Why Rickie Fowler is so excited about a game improvement Cobra 4 iron"

Most tour players use cavity back irons, not blades.   In my opinion the cavity back is the greatest game improvement feature of all time in an iron.   1° difference at 200 yards is over 10 feet.   Maybe that doesn't seem like much but when I add it to my other faults, I'd rather it not be in the equation.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

You don't know that.

Look, at the end of the day, clubs exist on a spectrum from the least forgiving to the most. You're asking for a club that occupies two separate spots on the spectrum.

Clubs are designed as wholes. Features complement each other, and there are tradeoffs. While I'm sure there are some "forgiving" irons that have less offset than others… you seem to want almost no offset, which isn't even really seen in musclebacks.

Of course I do.   Pros are playing cavity back irons with much less if even any offset.   The offset has nothing to do with a cavity back.

Hybrids are made with or without offset.  I've used both.   I didn't give up any of the other features when I went to one without offset.   

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

" Also, again, GI irons aren't really for "better players."

They're not playing the super offset, super game improvement irons. And those who are using some GI clubs are using them primarily in a 3-iron or something only. Long irons.

For example Rickie is using it in his 4-iron. Not his mid-irons, short irons, etc.

Again, and maybe you missed it… but offset is about aiming. Not "more time to square the face."

BTW that post is here:

Synopsis: an iron with a massive 5.7mm of offset will, at the highest rates of closure seen (by PGA Tour players who are also swinging the club very quickly), it ends up being less than about 1/3 of one degree more closed.

[ColeThornton]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

They're not playing the super offset, super game improvement irons. And those who are using some GI clubs are using them primarily in a 3-iron or something only. Long irons.

For example Rickie is using it in his 4-iron. Not his mid-irons, short irons, etc.

Again, and maybe you missed it… but offset is about aiming. Not "more time to square the face."

Sure, and when I can strike my 8i as consistently as he does his 4i  my opinion might change.   

"Again, and maybe you missed it… but offset is about aiming. Not "more time to square the face."

And that's your opinion.   There are many knowledgeable in the field that think there is more to it than the way the club "looks".

If the pros see the benefit in GI features in any clubs, the "vast" majority of players would reap benefits in most their clubs.    Like I said the majority of pros don't play blades.   They want the greatest GI iron feature of all time in their clubs too.

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

And that's your opinion.   There are many knowledgeable in the field that think there is more to it than the way the club "looks".

It's not. It's math. Click the link I posted - the math is there for you to see for yourself.

Also, GI clubs can be less consistent in the hands of better players.

https://clubsg.skygolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/5-3722-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

[ColeThornton]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

It's not. It's math.

Also, GI clubs can be less consistent in the hands of better players.

And once again, the majority of pros are playing cavity backs.   Not to mention the plethora of utility clubs in their bags replacing long irons all together.   And they strike the ball much more consistently they we do, excuse me I do.   I realize they're not playing "super" Gi irons, I never said they were.   But the Cobra F9 is definitely a GI iron and Fowler is one of the best ball strikers in the world!    The Ping Eye 2 was the best GI iron of it's day, and there were plenty of pros and great amateurs playing them.   When they first came out I don't even think Ping paid players they just realized how good they were.(the grooves helped too)

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

And once again, the majority of pros are playing cavity backs.

I know. I just don't classify cavity backs as super game improvement clubs. I don't classify cavity backs as offering "all the help [you] can get."

"All the help you can get", to me, = "SGI."

19 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

But the Cobra F9 is definitely a GI iron and Fowler is one of the best ball strikers in the world!

And he's basically using it like a hybrid, to replace a club they rarely hit on the PGA Tour. Occasional second shots to par fives. A rare long par three.

19 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

The Ping Eye 2 was the best GI iron of it's day, and there were plenty of pros and great amateurs playing them.

And it was nowhere near as advanced as super game improvement clubs of today. And they have 0.26" offset in the 5-iron.

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Look, at the end of the day… I don't know what you want. You want super game improvement features in a club, but there's a saying that "design is how it works," and super game improvement clubs, as a rule, have a lot of offset because that's integral to how they work.

You want a unicorn. They don't exist.

And, heck, my Miura blades have a tenth of an inch of offset in the mid-irons, so you're talking about very little here.

P.S. The 5.7mm I used in my example for the math was assuming there are literal no-offset clubs.

[ColeThornton]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

I know. I just don't classify cavity backs as super game improvement clubs. I don't classify cavity backs as offering "all the help [you] can get."

"All the help you can get", to me, = "SGI."

And he's basically using it like a hybrid, to replace a club they rarely hit on the PGA Tour. Occasional second shots to par fives. A rare long par three.

And it was nowhere near as advanced as super game improvement clubs of today. And they have 0.26" offset in the 5-iron.

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Look, at the end of the day… I don't know what you want. You want super game improvement features in a club, but a "design is how it works," and super game improvement clubs, as a rule, have a lot of offset because that's integral to how they work.

You want a unicorn. They don't exist.

And, heck, my Miura blades have a tenth of an inch of offset in the mid-irons.

"I don't know what you want."

I didn't ask you specifically but I enjoy your input.   My original post was specific as to who it was for.   It's indisputable that the best players in the world are seeing the benefits in GI features.   In fact many tour pros are using the PXG irons.  These are some of the features-

1) Hollow for extreme perimeter weighting, more than just a cavity.

2) Individual weight screws, primarily low on the club, which creates a lower center of gravity.

3) Wider sole.

4) A flexible high COR face which increases distance.

5) Fill to increase COR

This represents the "majority" of features used in most "super" GI irons these days.

Once again I point out, that if the majority of tour pros are playing clubs with some GI features and some are playing clubs with many GI features, Why in the world would a GI iron with little offset be a "Unicorn".   You say Fowler is using his F9 4i as a hybrid.  That's the point!

Hybrids are the greatest example of GI clubs on tour, and most of them have no offset!

Edited January 22, 2019 by ColeThornton

[iacas]

Again, there’s a spectrum. Tour players are using clubs with “some” GI features (including offset), while you want “all the help you can get.”

Those mildly GI clubs have offset. SGI clubs have even more.

[ColeThornton]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Again, there’s a spectrum. Your players are using clubs with “some” GI features (including offset), while you want “all the help you can get.”

The PXG iron most the pros are using has very little offset.  PXGs SGI iron has plenty of offset.   I would buy that club with no or little offset tomorrow.   But once again the manufacturers seem to think there is no market for a SGI iron without offset even though they offer their hybrids(compared to a 2 iron certainly SGI) with no offset.

Squaring the Club Face

"By pushing the club head a bit farther back from the shaft line, an offset club also helps to limit slices caused by open club faces because its structure “gives the head a little more time for the club face to square up at impact,” says PGA professional Don Trahan."

What Are the Benefits of Offset Golf Clubs? | Golfweek

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The head of an offset club has a leading edge that is set back from the shaft. Such clubs are also called offset hosel clubs because...

"The concept is that the offset gives the head a little more time for the club face to square up at impact and thus, the slice will be reduced and maybe even eliminated to give the player a straight shot"

 

Offset Irons: Are they for you? | Swing Surgeon - Don Trahan Peak Performance Golf Swing

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I have covered wood head design with the discussion of the anti-slice mechanisms of hook face and upright lie angles to help...

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by ColeThornton

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

Squaring the Club Face

It’s simple math. Go read it. The “more time” argument is bogus.

I don’t care what Don Trahan says. Math is math.

P.S. Manufacturers are in the business of making money so there probably really isn’t a market for an SGI club with little to no offset. And, for the last time, design is how it works.

[ColeThornton]

Just now, iacas said:

It’s simple math. Go read it. The “more time” argument is bogus.

Would you not agree that regardless of how it does it, the point of offset is to encourage the ball going more left than right?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

Would you not agree that regardless of how it does it, the point of offset is to encourage the ball going more left than right?

That’s not all it does.

Offset helps to provide the SGI features you claim to want too.

[ColeThornton]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

That’s not all it does.

Offset helps to provide the SGI features you claim to want too.

Other than the weight being slightly further back, which I've already addressed... what?

[iacas]

Good luck finding your unicorn, man.

You want something that doesn't exist, and there are likely good reasons that such a thing does not exist.

[ColeThornton]

36 minutes ago, iacas said:

It’s simple math. Go read it. The “more time” argument is bogus.

I don’t care what Don Trahan says. Math is math.

P.S. Manufacturers are in the business of making money so there probably really isn’t a market for an SGI club with little to no offset. And, for the last time, design is how it works.

They won't know until they try one.   At one time every type of club ever invented was not tried yet.   And once again most Gi/SGI features have nothing to do with offset!

[Carl3]

10 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

Interesting that you can see the difference the other way.   Because hybrids resemble small woods, I was under the impression there were many that were not offset.   

Maybe I am confusing the offset with was seems like a draw bias.