Stack & Tilt Fade

[canadianpro]

OK Guys...Erik, Dave & James too

I know what causes the fade....clubface closed to the target line and open to the path???? Which means the ball is forward enough that the impact is now on the "front" side of center......Explain if this is not correct as it is hard to explain to my students


Best!

Peter

OR...is it still on the back side of center but your body is aimed left and the clubface is closed to the target but open to the "inside/out" path??

PB

[iacas]

Hey Peter...

I know what causes the fade....clubface closed to the target line and open to the path????

If you want a pull fade. Most people, most better golfers, prefer a push fade.

The second thing you described is a push-fade, Peter. I was all prepared to go into more detail but i think you basically nailed it. I think you know what you're saying. If you aim your feet 10 degrees left, swing in-to-out 4 degrees (relative to your stance), that's still 6 degrees out to in relative to the target. If the clubface is 3 degrees open to your swing path it's still 3 degrees closed to the target - it's a push-fade still hit on the back side of the circle.

[canadianpro]

Erik

Thanks...things are fitting together well...in fact I found a traffic cone in our barn...it is now at my range...ha ha

PB

[Cabernet]

Thanks for the explaination Iacas.  I am a new S&T proponent (about a year now) and striking it great. But have some confusion on working the ball.  To hit an intentional fade, I was under the wrong impression that S&T promoted a pull fade until I read your response (per the CD's).  So I need a little clarificaton. To hit an intentional fade, 1) set up left of target 2) ball position the same relative to my stance 3) grip with an open clubface 4) swing normal.  If this is true, I have a couple questions please.  1. Why wouldn't you play the ball back farther to counter for the increase in loft for opening the club? Wouldn't you hit higher and loose more distance? and 2) What is your geometric process for set up relative to the target? Where is your club pointing relative to the target at address?  Can you step me through your approach?  Thanks for you insight!!!

[saevel25]

is it aiming you feet or your body? So for a draw do you aim your body / Feet right?

[iacas]

First, let's assume that your normal push-draw is hit from a neutral alignment and a neutral plane but, because you're swinging down, you're still swinging out relative to that plane. Let's assume the face is 2 degrees right of the target and the path is 4 degrees out to in (so 2 right of the face, 4 right of the target line).

For the purposes of this discussion, and just like with TrackMan, + numbers are "to the right" and - numbers are "to the left."

Originally Posted by Cabernet

To hit an intentional fade, 1) set up left of target 2) ball position the same relative to my stance 3) grip with an open clubface 4) swing normal.

To hit a push-fade (I'm making up these numbers), again:

a) aim the feet -8 (8 degrees left) rather than 0 for the stock push-draw.

b) aim the clubface -2 from the target (2 degrees left of the target).

c) the path, if you still swing +4 to your stance, is now -4 of the target, so you create a situation where you're swinging -4 with a clubface at -2. Ball starts left and cuts.

It's a "push" cut because it's to the right of your stance. But you're not hitting it "on the front side of the circle" - that's after low point, remember.

Originally Posted by Cabernet

1. Why wouldn't you play the ball back farther to counter for the increase in loft for opening the club? Wouldn't you hit higher and loose more distance?

You don't.

The clubface has virtually the same loft as a push-draw. It's really close... unless you're really moving the ball in the air, it's not worth figuring this out.

Plus, farther back in your stance is farther back on the circle, so you're more likely to hit more from the inside with a path that's farther to the right - not something you want when you're playing a cut.

Originally Posted by Cabernet

2) What is your geometric process for set up relative to the target? Where is your club pointing relative to the target at address?  Can you step me through your approach?  Thanks for you insight!!!

Does the above work? If not, here's the skinny (remember - your swing happens to produce a path +4 to your feet alignment):

Push-Draw:

Feet: 0

Clubface: +2

Path: +4

Push-Fade:

Feet: -8

Clubface: -2

Path: -4

(This is why the loft can vary slightly. In the push-draw the face is 2 degrees open to the stance, but in the push-fade it's 6. Rotate your face open four degrees just standing there. The effective addition to loft will be about a degree - not really much to worry about.)

Originally Posted by saevel25

is it aiming you feet or your body? So for a draw do you aim your body / Feet right?

If you want to hit a straight draw or a pull-draw, sure. Otherwise read above. From a neutral alignment the "stock shot" should be a push-draw because the clubhead will still be traveling OUT as it's traveling DOWN the plane.

[Cabernet]

Interesting Iacas - so, you're actually doing mental math with degrees estimates when you are playing a shot on the course. So, I need to get the feel for degrees when setting up - I'll figure it out. Understanding the standard +4 path will help. I wasn't able to play this weekend but willl work on your approach at the range this week.  Thanks tons!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Cabernet

Interesting Iacas - so, you're actually doing mental math with degrees estimates when you are playing a shot on the course. So, I need to get the feel for degrees when setting up - I'll figure it out. Understanding the standard +4 path will help. I wasn't able to play this weekend but willl work on your approach at the range this week.  Thanks tons!

Not really. I know my path at various points in my stance (it gets close to 0 around my left shoulder), and everything's based on that. Tough to explain in text - the numbers were just as examples.

[Zeph]

Both these shots will end up pretty close to the target.

Two things change when you are hitting a fade instead of a draw. You align left instead of parallell to the target line and you open the clubface 4º compared to a push-draw. On a push-draw, the clubface is 2º open, on a push-fade, it is 6º open, all relative to your body alignment.

If you know that the swingpath angle a couple of balls forward of center is +4º, you can just change your alignment and clubface to hit different shapes. The lowpoint is around the left shoulder, which is where you maybe would place the ball when hitting a driver straight. The problem with moving the ball forward when hitting a fade is that you are closer to the lowpoint, which means you'll most likely not have the same quality of the shot. Like Erik said, the difference in effective loft is not very big, so you will still hit the ball somewhat the same distance.

Nobody measure their clubface angle to make sure it is 6º here and 2º there on the course. You can hardly tell the two apart with the naked eye. That is where practice comes into play, you just have to experiment to find the positions that work for you, then try to memorize how the clubface looks at address and repeat it. 4º is not a lot, so don't overdo it and hit a big push-slice.

I like to align my body first, then the clubface. Let's say I'm going to hit the draw illustrated above. I find my intermediate target and align my body parallell to the target line, which would be a yard or so left of the flag. From there, I open the clubface 2º and hit it. All I really do is align the clubface square first, then rotate the grip a little bit in my hands.

If I'm hitting the fade I'll find the intermediate target and align 8º left. On a 150 yard shot, 8º left is 20 yards left of the flag. Once I'm set up 8º left, I will open the clubface 6º, which is slightly inside the target line. Again, I don't measure angles, it's just something you have to work on. Knowing somewhat your swingpath angle at impact is good to know, it makes it easier to figure out how much you have to open the clubface. Easiest way is to experiment, hit balls on the range and on the course, see what happens.

[Cabernet]

Zeph & Iacas - Excellent info. . .and makes total sense. I realize now that, for my standard push draw, I actually set up with the clubface square to target but my clubface is probably 2 degrees open at impact - So, I may have some refining to do there.  But I understand what I need to work on with the push-fade and getting a feel for the degrees. Great stuff - THANKS TONS!!! By the way, where did the graphic come from?

[Zeph]

Knowing your body alignment is pretty important. If you think you align parallell to the target, but really align 4º right, you can hit a pull-draw and mistake it for a push-draw.

As long as you keep aligning parallell to the target line, you will eventually figure out when it's a push-draw and when it's a pull-draw. I use intermediate targets, they help me a lot. Once I'm aligned parallell to the target, I open the clubface slightly. Aligning the clubface to such a close target is very difficult. At 40cm in front of the ball, the clubface should aim 1,5cm outside the target line. Find square and then open it a little bit, nothing extreme. It depends on how much you swing in-out of course.

The graphics are made by me.

[Cabernet]

Thanks again Zeph. I'm pretty anal about the set up being on target.  So, I'll work on it. By the way. . . nice graphics!  Maybe the S&T guys would hire you as their illustrator for their next book?

[Cabernet]

Sorry, one last question - does the initial ball launch direction equal the clubface angle at impact?  Or the swing path angle at impact? Or maybe half way between?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Cabernet

Sorry, one last question - does the initial ball launch direction equal the clubface angle at impact?  Or the swing path angle at impact? Or maybe half way between?

Around 75-90% clubface angle.

[Cabernet]

Got it.  Thanks again Iacas.