Noticing more PGA players are Stack & Tilt-ish

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Old1964

My point is simple:  why post about S&T; if you don't understand it?

Hey, I'd rather people who don't understand something post than just ignore the conversation. If they're posting, they're engaged, and might learn something, so credit to those who do post even if they don't understand it fully.

[The_Pharaoh]

As well as ripping off the S&T; guys, what I immensely dislike about the guy are the things he says in interviews like the quote below. Who the hell does he think he is? Is he embarrassed to be a "swing coach"? Would he rather have been a lawyer or a doctor, or something more respectable? Personally, I think teaching golf is very respectable and it is not easy to be a good golf instructor. However, I accept I am 'simply' helping people enjoy their golf a little more by playing better.

What makes his comments even worse, is the fact he's the envy of every golf instructor out there as he is working with the greatest golfer to ever have played the game, yet shrugs it off as if it is simply a stepping stone on his way to single-handingly achieving world peace.

"Forty years from now if somebody walks up to my son and says to him what a great swing coach his dad was, I've missed the point big time."

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Let me explain to you how Sean Foley created the image you see before you on television, in magazines, and on the internet:

1) He learned directly from Mike and Andy the principles of the Stack and Tilt swing. He also studied their influences: The Golfing Machine, Mac O'Grady, Larry Bartosek, Tom Tomasello, and Mike Bender.

2) He took all this information -- which by the way is extremely powerful information, especially when compared with conventional instruction -- and clouded it with smoke and mirrors: big buzz words, cliches, life coaching tips, paraphrased misquotations, etc. He does this in an attempt to project himself as this swing whispering, enlightened, unique virtuoso of the golf swing. And people are eating that shit up.

That's personally why I dislike the guy.

In the end though, it was inevitable that one of Mike and Andy's students would end up doing this. This is something I think we'll see more and more of as the years go by: Instructors learning stack and tilt, stealing those ideas, not crediting them, and pawning it off as their own ideas.

It would have happened sooner, but Mike and Andy didn't really hit the instructional scene until the last few years.

"How much as Stack and Tilt influenced you, Sean?"

"Maybe five percent."

Sean, you ungrateful maggot....

PS- Props to Mike, Andy, Nick Clearwater, Dave, Erik, etc. for choosing not to go the Foley route with their careers. And I don't mean "start teaching PGA pros." I mean bastardizing Stack and Tilt the way Sean has.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

"Forty years from now if somebody walks up to my son and says to him what a great swing coach his dad was, I've missed the point big time."

With all due respect, I think you missed the point of that quote.

I would say the exact same thing (if you substitute "daughter" in there). We should strive to be great people first. If we let our chosen jobs define us, then I'd agree that we've missed the point.

Again, I couldn't really care much less about Foley as a person. I'm interested in his teaching, and that's about it. And this thread isn't really about Foley.

[The_Pharaoh]

I hear what you are saying. I was using the quote as an example of his aloofness. I just think he is trying too hard to come across as some sort of philosopher or intellectual, rather than accepting who he is. Yes, we all strive to be great people and yes, we all hope our kids think we are great parents. It's obvious stuff you don't need to say in an interview. Also, we can see he is not as smart as he thinks he is as he uses long words incorrectly.

But you are right, this thread isn't about him.

Originally Posted by iacas

With all due respect, I think you missed the point of that quote.

[johnclayton1982]

I read the stack and tilt book and came away with three things I've incorporated into my swing that I thought were great.  I am really glad I didn't publish the name of the S&T; instructor in my big post about two months ago about improving and how s&t; did not work - I didn't really understand it.  I went back to him for two lessons and he helped me really, really improve my contact - it is so consistent since i added the left shoulder drop + spine tilt to straight + little weight shift.  I have now broke 80 a few rounds in a row (preparing another big post on the how from 88 to 78) and the biggest thing S&T; has to offer, in my opinion, is consistent contact.  I don't hit the ball fat or thin anymore.  I go left / right all the time and occasionally short / long but almost never an outright duff or a skull unless in some gnarly rough or some other crazy lie.  Even out of bunkers, S&T; gives you consistent contact time after time (well, these principles do).  With consistent contact and a solid short game you can really do some damage.

Anyway, the three things I took from S&T;:

1.  The proper role of the left shoulder on the backswing.

This is number one.  I used to play with the "traditional" left shoulder horizontal turn.  Once I started actually going down with my left shoulder on the backswing I really just stopped hitting the ball fat / thin.  Without having to synch your hands and your shoulders back up again on the downswing you almost have to try to hit it fat / thin.  It is so much easier. Shoulder down, hands up. All connected.  Amazing change.  This was groundbreaking when I learned this.

2.  The tilting of the spine left on the backswing (which isn't really a tilt, just staying straight so the center of your shoulders and your head doesn't move).

Self-explanatory.  You can shoulder tilt but keep your center in the same place.  If your center is in the same place (roughly) every swing, then you bottom out your swing at the same place every swing.  This is the key to consistent contact.

3.  The weight shift backwards doesn't matter, but all the weight must come to the front foot as you swing.

I discovered this on the tee at a local muni course.  I had been having an awful round, shots going everywhere.  I teed up with a 4 hybrid at a routine 200 or so long par 3.  I said to myself I was going to hit it clean (not fat or thin) no matter what and took what i thought was a small swing with no weight shift back.  Boom the ball took off and went about 190.  After that i went to the range and just played around with weight shift.  I still am comfortable with a very small weight shift to the back foot (probably 55/45 right when i start my downswing) but this stopped me hitting the ball fat.  The key is to shift very little if at all, but make sure all that weight gets forward on your downswing.

I discovered S&T; is about a lot more than weight shift issues.  I actually still shift backwards a little.  I think the role of the spine, the takeback inside, and the left shoulder drop are all much more important than the weight shift issue.

I would encourage all golfers to read the stack and tilt book.  You can take a little from column A, a little from column B and see if it helps you.  I did not adapt alot of the deatils, but S&T; in my experience is great for one thing: consistent contact of ball then turf.  Making your swing center the same every time makes the bottom of your swing the same every time and that means good contact every time.  I'm still working on adapting these new principles to the driver.  I sky about 1 in 3 shots by hitting down on it.  But that will come - a few S&t; principles have made my iron play 1000x more consistent.

As a closing matter, who is sean foley and why are people so mad at him?

(Also I hope I haven't butchered this.  It worked for me.  I hope it is at least somewhat accurate as to what S&T; teaches).