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Noticing more PGA players are Stack & Tilt-ish

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Although most of them are not directly students of P & B.  I see alot of weight forward hands deep.  Maybe it's just my little keyhole of viewing or did you notice this before?

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i think you might just be realizing that key components to S&T; are things that most good golfers do.

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It's a chicken/egg situation. If you ask an S&T; adherent (I ain't sayin' I ain't one) they'll tell you the pattern was developed out of an analysis of key swing characteristics common to very good players of the past. So it's not really surprising to see very good players of the present exhibiting the same tendencies, whether or not they identify with the particular method.

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I have noticed that more people seem to be keeping their head on the ball so they seem to be staying more centered.  I may be noticing this because i am making the same changes , but i would see Sean Foley as the major influence for this.  He is teaching Tiger Woods these things and it seems to be working well for him as well as Hunter Mahan and Sean O'Hair.  If there is a player that other people are going to look at to get better it is tiger woods.

As for saying it is because of S and T, i wouldnt really say that.  And it seems like a lot of S and T people say that Foley is just teaching S and T stuff or stealing it but not giving credit, but what he seems to be doing is taking some of the good aspects of it and leaving the stuff that isnt necceassary...such as forward tilting in the backswing or putting as much weight on the front leg (i know he says 55/45).  I really like his stuff too, it makes since...even tho he tries to use big words a lot and talks about cells and stuff.

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Originally Posted by westcyderydin

I have noticed that more people seem to be keeping their head on the ball so they seem to be staying more centered.  I may be noticing this because i am making the same changes , but i would see Sean Foley as the major influence for this.  He is teaching Tiger Woods these things and it seems to be working well for him as well as Hunter Mahan and Sean O'Hair.  If there is a player that other people are going to look at to get better it is tiger woods.

As for saying it is because of S and T, i wouldnt really say that.  And it seems like a lot of S and T people say that Foley is just teaching S and T stuff or stealing it but not giving credit, but what he seems to be doing is taking some of the good aspects of it and leaving the stuff that isnt necceassary...such as forward tilting in the backswing or putting as much weight on the front leg (i know he says 55/45).  I really like his stuff too, it makes since...even tho he tries to use big words a lot and talks about cells and stuff.


My guess is he's got a propensity to use big words and must use them -- because he doesn't want to use S&T; Lingo. I saw his Golf Digest's Young Instructor's Series and am reading the Stack 'n Tilt Book -- he is incorporating what he has learned from Bennett/Plummer - how much? I don't know -- his videos give you just enough general information to entice you, but not detail. It's like the girl in high school who flirted with you, but didn't give you the goods.

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I think good players do what stack and tilt advocates so yeah, PGA tour players do those things.  I don't think of stack and tilt as a revolutionary way of swinging a golf club, just the way the greats have learned to play and stack and tilt helps explain what great players have in common.  I don't classify swings as stack and tilt or traditional.  I classify them as effective and consistant.  A good move is a good move.  All PGA players have one.

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youre probably right.  I am just saying that there are a lot of people who want to change their whole swing to follow a pattern such as S and T.  Then there are a lot of people who already have a good swing and only need minor adjustments.  Some (probably most) golfers and most pros fit into the second category.  That is also how Foley seems to teach.  You dont have to follow 8 steps to have the desired swing, you keep your swing and just change a few things and off you go.

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Originally Posted by westcyderydin

youre probably right.  I am just saying that there are a lot of people who want to change their whole swing to follow a pattern such as S and T.  Then there are a lot of people who already have a good swing and only need minor adjustments.  Some (probably most) golfers and most pros fit into the second category.  That is also how Foley seems to teach.  You dont have to follow 8 steps to have the desired swing, you keep your swing and just change a few things and off you go.



We'll see a lot of Tiger this week -- so it will be interesting to see what changes Foley has made with a couple of month to work with Tiger without an event. I bet cameras and analysis will be all over the place look at setup, backswing, downswing; and comparing it with pre-Foley and post-Foley, et al.


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Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

I think good players do what stack and tilt advocates so yeah, PGA tour players do those things.  I don't think of stack and tilt as a revolutionary way of swinging a golf club, just the way the greats have learned to play and stack and tilt helps explain what great players have in common.  I don't classify swings as stack and tilt or traditional.  I classify them as effective and consistant.  A good move is a good move.  All PGA players have one.



Based on the 1972 book I'm reading this week, I can't believe how many top players are John Jacobsish.

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i was trying to find out what his ( john jacobs) ideas were on the swing but didnt really find much on the internet.  hows the book?  my dad went to his school like 15 years ago but doesnt really remember much from it now.

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Originally Posted by westcyderydin

i was trying to find out what his ( john jacobs) ideas were on the swing but didnt really find much on the internet.  hows the book?  my dad went to his school like 15 years ago but doesnt really remember much from it now.



I got down to an 8 with that book about 15 years ago (I just found another copy at Goodwill last week) and whenever I struggled, I'd reread it.

It's good, but have there been improvements in teaching methods since 1972? Oh yeah!  BTW, he used the same illustrator as the Hogan book - not saying that adds any credibility necessarily. With the Jacobs, Hogan, Nicklaus, S&T;, etc.  books I'd say there's probably a lot of consistency. I mean, really, why wouldn't there be?!?

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would reverse the title to "Stack and Tilt is PGAish".....lets not be revisionists here, I could say the same thing for any swing.....components have been around long before any of us.  Why this constant need for affirmation?

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Is Foley a tease or is he positioning to sell the next DVD with more info?

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

It's like the girl in high school who flirted with you, but didn't give you the goods.



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Money, Money, Money!!!

Originally Posted by JayMc

Is Foley a tease or is he positioning to sell the next DVD with more info?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

It's like the girl in high school who flirted with you, but didn't give you the goods.



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Originally Posted by westcyderydin

I have noticed that more people seem to be keeping their head on the ball so they seem to be staying more centered.  I may be noticing this because i am making the same changes , but i would see Sean Foley as the major influence for this.  He is teaching Tiger Woods these things and it seems to be working well for him as well as Hunter Mahan and Sean O'Hair.  If there is a player that other people are going to look at to get better it is tiger woods.

As for saying it is because of S and T, i wouldnt really say that.  And it seems like a lot of S and T people say that Foley is just teaching S and T stuff or stealing it but not giving credit, but what he seems to be doing is taking some of the good aspects of it and leaving the stuff that isnt necceassary...such as forward tilting in the backswing or putting as much weight on the front leg (i know he says 55/45).  I really like his stuff too, it makes since...even tho he tries to use big words a lot and talks about cells and stuff.

I'm a bit disappointed that you've been on this forum as long as you have and you still don't know the first thing about S&T;, to the point where your analysis is made irrelevant... There's no "forward tilting" in the backswing and it's S&T; that said 55/45... at setup and at the top of the backswing.

And since Foley learned a ton from Bennett/Plummer, and began teaching Tour players after them, it seems silly to say that he's the reason golfer's heads are staying more centered. That's part of fundamental #1 in S&T;, after all - there's no "forward tilting" at all.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

1) what [Sean Foley] seems to be doing is taking some of the good aspects of it and leaving the stuff that isnt necceassary...such as forward tilting in the backswing or putting as much weight on the front leg (i know he says 55/45).

I'm a bit disappointed that you've been on this forum as long as you have and you still don't know the first thing about S&T;, to the point where your analysis is made irrelevant... There's no "forward tilting" in the backswing and it's S&T; that said 55/45... at setup and at the top of the backswing.

2) And since Foley learned a ton from Bennett/Plummer, and began teaching Tour players after them, it seems silly to say that he's the reason golfer's heads are staying more centered. That's part of fundamental #1 in S&T;, after all - there's no "forward tilting" at all.


1)  This kind of proves what i was saying about Foleys stuff.  I have watched a half hour segment on TV and 3 internet clips and understand what he is saying.  it makes a lot of sense and i have already implimented a lot of it without much effort.  I am sure there is more stuff that he teaches and if i want to find more of it i probably can.

I have been on this forum for a year, i have tried to look up some S and T stuff on youtube, and still dont really know what to look for.  The videos are 10 minutes long, some of them seem to be rather conflicting, and instead of using words like takeaway or transition there is stuff like P1, P2, P3, etc.  so that means there is a lot more effort on my part to try to learn about this method.  It would be great for a beginner, somebody who wants to start over and totally change their swing, or somebody who wants to invest the time to learn the whole system.

2)  I still agree with what i said.  Foley has a good track record with a few pretty good pros which got him a good rep...good enough that tiger wanted to see what his stuff was about.  he tried it and it worked very well for him in a pretty short amount of time.  then other players noticed and want to check out some of those ideas for themselves.

now maybe S and T had something to do with foleys success (and im sure it did).  But if Foley would have associated himself with S and T i bet he wouldnt have all of the pros he has now because S and T is either misunderstood or maybe too hard to understand for those who dont already know the system.  We all know how the outside golf world views S and T.

So all and all i am not bad mouthing S and T.  I have warmed up to it a lot in the last year.  it is easy to hate something you do not understand.  I am just saying that it is not easy to understand so it is not all the fault of the ignorant.  Sean Foley just seems to explain what seems to be the same thing i guess in a way that is much easier to understand, requires less of an investment in time and effort, and with all of these things considered seems easier to adapt into an already decent swing.

If you dont agree with what i am saying then at least i am an example of an outside perception of the system.  and somebody with no life, for as long as it took to type all this out haha.

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Let me explain to you how Sean Foley created the image you see before you on television, in magazines, and on the internet:

1) He learned directly from Mike and Andy the principles of the Stack and Tilt swing. He also studied their influences: The Golfing Machine, Mac O'Grady, Larry Bartosek, Tom Tomasello, and Mike Bender.

2) He took all this information -- which by the way is extremely powerful information, especially when compared with conventional instruction -- and clouded it with smoke and mirrors: big buzz words, cliches, life coaching tips, paraphrased misquotations, etc. He does this in an attempt to project himself as this swing whispering, enlightened, unique virtuoso of the golf swing. And people are eating that shit up.

That's personally why I dislike the guy.

In the end though, it was inevitable that one of Mike and Andy's students would end up doing this. This is something I think we'll see more and more of as the years go by: Instructors learning stack and tilt, stealing those ideas, not crediting them, and pawning it off as their own ideas.

It would have happened sooner, but Mike and Andy didn't really hit the instructional scene until the last few years.

"How much as Stack and Tilt influenced you, Sean?"

"Maybe five percent."

Sean, you ungrateful maggot....

PS- Props to Mike, Andy, Nick Clearwater, Dave, Erik, etc. for choosing not to go the Foley route with their careers. And I don't mean "start teaching PGA pros." I mean bastardizing Stack and Tilt the way Sean has.

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Originally Posted by westcyderydin

I have been on this forum for a year, i have tried to look up some S and T stuff on youtube, and still dont really know what to look for.  The videos are 10 minutes long, some of them seem to be rather conflicting, and instead of using words like takeaway or transition there is stuff like P1, P2, P3, etc.  so that means there is a lot more effort on my part to try to learn about this method. It would be great for a beginner, somebody who wants to start over and totally change their swing, or somebody who wants to invest the time to learn the whole system.

There's some of that, yes.

But there are other videos which are really simple and straightforward. For example:

The Ps are just positions: http://thesandtrap.com/wiki/big-list-of-golf-terminology

Additionally, the S&T; book is pretty inexpensive. It has nothing to do with having no life, or the "outside world," or whatever, and more to do with me just wanting to correct some basic misunderstandings so that they aren't perpetuated.

So, I'm capping my reply at that. I recommend looking into things more, if you want. S&T; is what Foley teaches (Bennett/Plummer still teach more pros than Foley does - but he's been fortunate and worked hard to get some with a teeny bit more actual talent), so if you like what he's teaching, you may as well hear it from the mouths of the horses or something.

P.S. I know folks want to react a bit like JetFan1983, but I have a hard time doing that. If one of the downsides to S&T; is a sort of "stigma" from the name, then I have a hard time blaming him for taking a sort of "easy way out" and just basically teaching S&T; but calling it "my own method" and not putting a name on it.

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