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Are you talking something like a Titleist CB cavity back or more a game improvement iron? I'd say if you're talking Titleist CB then no. If you're talking game improvement irons then yes I do believe they have the potential to go further.

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Caution: Don't forget that shaft type also influences loft and distance...

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The average player can hit a cavity-back SGI farther than a blade or a mixed design iron, because the cavity-perimeter weight gets the ball up in the air better, which also helps with distance. Part of the design: SGI have a very low vertical center of gravity (VCOG), another head feature which helps get the ball up. Plus, the SGIs often have stronger lofts than the blades/GI/Player's clubs. Also, many SGIs come with high-launch shafts as stock.

Note that SGI + high-launch shaft can create too much ball heigh t for some players even with average clubhead speed. Too high a trajectory can cost  distance, plus expose the shot to wind currents. I played standard X20s - SGI - for two seasons, and liked the mid-launch Uniflex shaft. I had tried Big Bertha and G10 irons with high-launch shafts, but this combo ballooned the ball too much even for me.

Better players choose the non-SGI heads in part because they want to be able to vary their trajectory. GI/cavity heads have a somewhat higher VCOG, which keeps the ball down a little. Those with higher clubhead speed tend to use mid- or low-launch shafts.

Also, there's player cavities, pocket cavity, split cavity, mixed head sets.... so, there's a lot more to consider than cavity vs. blade.

Here's a Golfsmith report on the matter:

http://golftips.golfsmith.com/blades-vs-cavity-back-irons-2404.html

Golf Digest had a similar feature the past few months, citing OEM club designers on cavities, but I can't find it on search. Can anybody help on this one?

Edit: Correct grammar.

Focus, connect and follow through!

  • Completed KBS Education Seminar (online, 2015)
  • GolfWorks Clubmaking AcademyFitting, Assembly & Repair School (2012)

Driver:  :touredge: EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  :callaway: Rogue 4W + 7W
Hybrid:  :callaway: Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  :callaway: Mavrik MAX 5i-PW
Wedges:  :callaway: MD3: 48°, 54°... MD4: 58° ||  Putter:image.png.b6c3447dddf0df25e482bf21abf775ae.pngInertial NM SL-583F, 34"  
Ball:  image.png.f0ca9194546a61407ba38502672e5ecf.png QStar Tour - Divide  ||  Bag: :sunmountain: Three 5 stand bag

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

Caution: Don't forget that shaft type also influences loft and distance...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The average player can hit a cavity-back SGI farther than a blade or a mixed design iron, because the cavity-perimeter weight gets the ball up in the air better, which also helps with distance. Part of the design: SGI have a very low vertical center of gravity (VCOG), another head feature which helps get the ball up. Plus, the SGIs often have stronger lofts than the blades/GI/Player's clubs. Also, many SGIs come with high-launch shafts as stock.

Note that SGI + high-launch shaft can create too much ball height for some players even with average clubhead speed. Too high a trajectory can cost  distance, plus expose the shot to wind currents. I played standard X20s - SGI - for two seasons, and liked the mid-launch Uniflex shaft. I had tried Big Bertha and G10 irons with high-launch shafts, but this combo ballooned the ball too much even for me.

Better players choose the non-SGI heads in part because they want to be able to vary their trajectory. GI/cavity heads have a somewhat higher VCOG, which keeps the ball down a little. Those with higher clubhead speed tend to use mid- or low-launch shafts.

Also, there's player cavities, pocket cavity, split cavity, mixed head sets.... so, there's a lot more to consider than cavity vs. blade.

Here's a Golfsmith report on the matter:

http://golftips.golfsmith.com/blades-vs-cavity-back-irons-2404.html

Golf Digest had a similar feature the past few months, citing OEM club designers on cavities, but I can't find it on search. Can anybody help on this one?

Edit: Correct grammar.

What he said. Also, keep in mind using blades may force a player to make a controlled swing, where he can whale away at the ball with a forgiving iron. The forgiveness in CB and SGI clubs means a slight mishit wouldn't cost much distance or direction as compared to blades. That said, blades are great for practicing since that SGI head can allow you to get sloppy sometimes.

Irons are more about consistency and accuracy than distance. Hitting your irons longer is a huge advantage, but you should never try to force it.

A driver accidentally going 10 yards farther is rarely a problem, but approach shot distance control is a huge part of scoring. Whenever you see a pro who hits his irons pin high every time, even if it's left or right, they usually shoot very nice scores. When they get the depth wrong, they often shoot over par. They prefer to get the right club and the right shot, which lets them miss in the right spots. They use both types of iron at the pro level but rarely hit for max distance unless they want to hit it really high.

Wishon has a great chart in their iron catalog: http://viewer.epaperflip.com/Viewer.aspx?docid=037d5375-196b-42a7-a75a-a007015a2f5c

Pages 28 and 29 have every model of irons listed in order of topline thickness, shot height, forgiveness, and total distance as tested by a swing robot. Gives you some idea of how things work out, but be sure to notice loft differences and offset as it can skew the results a bit.

In My Bag:

Adams Super LS 9.5˚ driver, Aldila Phenom NL 65TX
Adams Super LS 15˚ fairway, Kusala black 72x
Adams Super LS 18˚ fairway, Aldila Rip'd NV 75TX
Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
Mizuno R12 60.5, black nickel, KBS Wedge X
Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
Bridgestone E5, Adidas samba bag, True Linkswear Stealth
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Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

What he said. Also, keep in mind using blades may force a player to make a controlled swing, where he can whale away at the ball with a forgiving iron. ...

I assume you're using the Golf Digest categories - SGI, GI and Player's - with a club's placement determined by its perceived market niche. (The original Maltby system has six categories, determined by scientific measurements).

You can "whale away" with an SGI iron, but it's a good way to hit a poor shot. SGI irons will produce bad shots if you don't hit the center 2 inches of the clubface. What SGI does is give you a margin of error on somewhat flawed shots.

But, if you unload a wild swing with a SGI iron, you get a wild miss. It's not like SGI is some magic wand. ( LW , I know this from personal experience... )

Focus, connect and follow through!

  • Completed KBS Education Seminar (online, 2015)
  • GolfWorks Clubmaking AcademyFitting, Assembly & Repair School (2012)

Driver:  :touredge: EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  :callaway: Rogue 4W + 7W
Hybrid:  :callaway: Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  :callaway: Mavrik MAX 5i-PW
Wedges:  :callaway: MD3: 48°, 54°... MD4: 58° ||  Putter:image.png.b6c3447dddf0df25e482bf21abf775ae.pngInertial NM SL-583F, 34"  
Ball:  image.png.f0ca9194546a61407ba38502672e5ecf.png QStar Tour - Divide  ||  Bag: :sunmountain: Three 5 stand bag

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

I assume you're using the Golf Digest categories - SGI, GI and Player's - with a club's placement determined by its perceived market niche. (The original Maltby system has six categories, determined by scientific measurements).

You can "whale away" with an SGI iron, but it's a good way to hit a poor shot. SGI irons will produce bad shots if you don't hit the center 2 inches of the clubface. What SGI does is give you a margin of error on somewhat flawed shots.

But, if you unload a wild swing with a SGI iron, you get a wild miss. It's not like SGI is some magic wand. (LW, I know this from personal experience... )

I totally agree, I've hit plenty of awful shots with SGI irons. But that 2" target becomes around perhaps a half inch with blades. I find they don't keep it straighter if your swing path dictates a certain shot shape, but they do reduce gear effect on toe and heel hits. You can still hit draws and fades off the sweet spot though. And additionally, they are a lot better on thin hits and prevent some distance loss on mishits to keep the shot more playable.

But essentially, if you're stubborn enough to hit for max distance all the time, you might as well have the sense to play forgiving irons.

In My Bag:

Adams Super LS 9.5˚ driver, Aldila Phenom NL 65TX
Adams Super LS 15˚ fairway, Kusala black 72x
Adams Super LS 18˚ fairway, Aldila Rip'd NV 75TX
Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
Mizuno R12 60.5, black nickel, KBS Wedge X
Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
Bridgestone E5, Adidas samba bag, True Linkswear Stealth
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Yes and no. I hit my forged 8 iron(KZG ZO) 155 yards. I hit my cavity back "GI" 9 iron(Cleveland CG16) 150-155. Now, one would say that it is obvious the cavity back is longer. Hold on. They are the same loft. The only reason people think cavity backs are longer is because they don't know what loft of club they are hitting. As I get more used to the cavity backs I will post about the "difference". If anything it might be the other way around.

R11s driver

R11 3 wood

Glide sole design 5 wood

Cleveland CG16 irons

Vokey SM4 48*, Vokey SM4 52*, Vokey SM4 56* wedges

Yes! Eleanor putter

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Originally Posted by Willie Malay

Yes and no. I hit my forged 8 iron(KZG ZO) 155 yards. I hit my cavity back "GI" 9 iron(Cleveland CG16) 150-155. Now, one would say that it is obvious the cavity back is longer. Hold on. They are the same loft. The only reason people think cavity backs are longer is because they don't know what loft of club they are hitting. As I get more used to the cavity backs I will post about the "difference". If anything it might be the other way around.

I totally disagree. In terms of ball speed, on both perfect and off center hits, cavities win hands down, albeit by only a few mph at most. Total distance is completely another matter, as there are many factors. I don't doubt your word that the blades go just as far for you, but you'd have to hit them very reliably to truly average 155. GI irons, however, will be more reliable on testing.

That said, some players may find the shaft or launch conditions overall to be better from blades if they get enough ball speed and spin to balloon them. But that's a fitting problem, not the head.

The reason manufacturers originally made CB lofts stronger was the fact they launched so high. It's become a pissing contest now in terms of "distance", but it's the easiest way to adjust trajectory. That high lofted club with a big cavity back, longer shaft and softer tip trim will give even average players a really high trajectory, where it will be pretty penetrating with a low launching MB at the same loft. So, to get that same penetrating flight, you could strengthen the lofts by half a club's worth, keep the same tip trim and shaft length, and keep the big CB head that makes it a forgiving rocket. Same trajectory as the MB, but more forgiving and certainly a bit longer. Over time, this led to simply renaming clubs. Sure, technology allowed them to build higher launching heads since then, so the lofts have gotten stronger. There's some truth to the claim that manufacturers are using all the tricks they can to sell clubs, but at the same time it's not like shot height has drastically gone up or down.

There's also the issue of KZG offering a number of high end shafts while the CG16 comes with an 85g high launch shaft. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Few players hitting a 150y 8 iron will get good results from that shaft.
In terms of numbers, if you look at consistency, forgiveness, and distance, CBs win all day. Feel, looks, resale value, blades can stake a claim there, but even the newer CBs are getting better in those categories.

In My Bag:

Adams Super LS 9.5˚ driver, Aldila Phenom NL 65TX
Adams Super LS 15˚ fairway, Kusala black 72x
Adams Super LS 18˚ fairway, Aldila Rip'd NV 75TX
Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
Mizuno R12 60.5, black nickel, KBS Wedge X
Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
Bridgestone E5, Adidas samba bag, True Linkswear Stealth
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Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie Malay

Yes and no. I hit my forged 8 iron(KZG ZO) 155 yards. I hit my cavity back "GI" 9 iron(Cleveland CG16) 150-155. Now, one would say that it is obvious the cavity back is longer. Hold on. They are the same loft. The only reason people think cavity backs are longer is because they don't know what loft of club they are hitting. As I get more used to the cavity backs I will post about the "difference". If anything it might be the other way around.

I totally disagree. In terms of ball speed, on both perfect and off center hits, cavities win hands down, albeit by only a few mph at most. . . .

In terms of numbers, if you look at consistency, forgiveness, and distance, CBs win all day. Feel, looks, resale value, blades can stake a claim there, but even the newer CBs are getting better in those categories.

Can you post those numbers? The longest hitters at my club seem to all have MBs in the bag. This might be a Chicken versus the Egg debate, but even though our club champion uses GI equipment (RBZ irons and woods - very very ugly but the results don't lie) he's a relative short knocker and an amazing putter.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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We have to start with assumptions:  comparing clubs with the same loft and shaft (let's assume TTDG S300, since it's the most popular shaft in golf).  You also have to assume that the golfer has the clubhead speed to actually get a ball in the air with a forged blade.

On a center hit with a good swing, a forged muscleback blade will go farther than a forged cavity or a GI iron.

If you're good enough to hit a forged muscleback blade, then you're hitting the sweet spot (or pretty close) the vast majority of the time.  The problem with a blade is that a small miss can mean a difference of 10-15 yards.

A forged cavity (say we're comparing a Titlest 712 MB vs. CB) will minimize that distance difference on slight off-center hits.  Your pure hits will be 5 yards shorter, but your small misses will be 5 yards longer, and within 5-7 yards or so of a center hit.

Kevin

Titleist 910 D3 9.5* with ahina 72 X flex
Titleist 910F 13.5* with ahina 72 X flex
Adams Idea A12 Pro hybrid 18*; 23* with RIP S flex
Titleist 712 AP2 4-9 iron with KBS C-Taper, S+ flex
Titleist Vokey SM wedges 48*, 52*, 58*
Odyssey White Hot 2-ball mallet, center shaft, 34"

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Originally Posted by k-troop

We have to start with assumptions:  comparing clubs with the same loft and shaft (let's assume TTDG S300, since it's the most popular shaft in golf).  You also have to assume that the golfer has the clubhead speed to actually get a ball in the air with a forged blade.

On a center hit with a good swing, a forged muscleback blade will go farther than a forged cavity or a GI iron.

If you're good enough to hit a forged muscleback blade, then you're hitting the sweet spot (or pretty close) the vast majority of the time.  The problem with a blade is that a small miss can mean a difference of 10-15 yards.

A forged cavity (say we're comparing a Titlest 712 MB vs. CB) will minimize that distance difference on slight off-center hits.  Your pure hits will be 5 yards shorter, but your small misses will be 5 yards longer, and within 5-7 yards or so of a center hit.

I think there's no basis for that. Tour pros aren't hitting the ball far because of their equipment, and they're certainly not going to play something that has poor distance control. Not for a mere 5 yards.

A MB is basically a chunk of metal behind the hitting area, while a CB has a thin face, and in some cases can provide a slight spring effect. My claim is that CBs have a higher COR than MBs,  which increases ball speed with all else being equal, as well as a much higher MOI which pretty much helps forgiveness only.

MBs feel amazing, and the longer players use them (except, you know, Bubba Watson), but I fail to see how solid metal can have a higher COR than effectively hollow metal. Sure, the ball is responsible for most of the ball speed off the face, but there's certainly a couple yards accounted by the face.

With stock setups, generally poor players will benefit from the SGI irons, but good players might find an 80g shaft and .5" offset more harm than good. Hence the better player often finds players clubs better in their stock configuration. The ball speed difference is probably just a couple mph, assuming the exact same specs, but the launch and spin require a good bit of fitting to optimize, which can potentially make more of a difference than the ball speed.

Sean, I tried to find definitive numbers, but it's really hard. Look at (MGS)'s iron testing, they have pretty thorough testing including launch monitors and using several testers. Sadly there are limited clubs in the archive, and even fewer with similar specs. I tried to use the Adams MB2 vs the Wilson FGv2, both having the KBS tour shaft, but their lengths and lofts don't sync up. They only test with stock specs, sadly. Since all the hacker clubs have wack lofts and long, cheapo shafts, it's hard to find a good comparison with players clubs that all have the same specs and shaft types. MGS had a great compilation of all the players CB clubs a couple years ago, showing you the specs, SS, BS, spin, and accuracy. Unfortunately, all those clubs were nearly identical in their design, all being players cavities with no MB or GI models.

In My Bag:

Adams Super LS 9.5˚ driver, Aldila Phenom NL 65TX
Adams Super LS 15˚ fairway, Kusala black 72x
Adams Super LS 18˚ fairway, Aldila Rip'd NV 75TX
Adams Idea pro VST hybrid, 21˚, RIP Alpha 105x
Adams DHY 24˚, RIP Alpha 89x
5-PW Maltby TE irons, KBS C taper X, soft stepped once 130g
Mizuno T4, 54.9 KBS Wedge X
Mizuno R12 60.5, black nickel, KBS Wedge X
Odyssey Metal X #1 putter 
Bridgestone E5, Adidas samba bag, True Linkswear Stealth
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Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

I think there's no basis for that. Tour pros aren't hitting the ball far because of their equipment, and they're certainly not going to play something that has poor distance control. Not for a mere 5 yards.

A MB is basically a chunk of metal behind the hitting area, while a CB has a thin face, and in some cases can provide a slight spring effect. My claim is that CBs have a higher COR than MBs,  which increases ball speed with all else being equal, as well as a much higher MOI which pretty much helps forgiveness only.

MBs feel amazing, and the longer players use them (except, you know, Bubba Watson), but I fail to see how solid metal can have a higher COR than effectively hollow metal. Sure, the ball is responsible for most of the ball speed off the face, but there's certainly a couple yards accounted by the face.

With stock setups, generally poor players will benefit from the SGI irons, but good players might find an 80g shaft and .5" offset more harm than good. Hence the better player often finds players clubs better in their stock configuration. The ball speed difference is probably just a couple mph, assuming the exact same specs, but the launch and spin require a good bit of fitting to optimize, which can potentially make more of a difference than the ball speed.

Sean, I tried to find definitive numbers, but it's really hard. Look at (MGS)'s iron testing, they have pretty thorough testing including launch monitors and using several testers. Sadly there are limited clubs in the archive, and even fewer with similar specs. I tried to use the Adams MB2 vs the Wilson FGv2, both having the KBS tour shaft, but their lengths and lofts don't sync up. They only test with stock specs, sadly. Since all the hacker clubs have wack lofts and long, cheapo shafts, it's hard to find a good comparison with players clubs that all have the same specs and shaft types. MGS had a great compilation of all the players CB clubs a couple years ago, showing you the specs, SS, BS, spin, and accuracy. Unfortunately, all those clubs were nearly identical in their design, all being players cavities with no MB or GI models.

In addition you need to take into account the fact that most blades are forged from a softer steel. This is going to absorb some of the energy from impact and take an extra yard or two away from you. Not much, but a hard, cast face that has a trampoline effect will go further than a solid, softer face that doesn't spring through impact. Keep in mind though, the COR can only be so high on clubs and golf balls, or we'd all be hitting 300 yard drives.

 

 

My bag:

Driver: G10 10.5* w/ Pro Launch Red Reg 

3 Wood: G10 w/ Pro Launch Red Reg 

18* and 21* hybrids: G10 with Pro Launch Red Stiff 

4-PW: Ping Eye 2 Irons w/ Reg GS 95 

56* and 60*: Tour-S Rustique Wedges w/ Stiff KBS Tour 

Putter: Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Newport 

 

 

 

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Why would you count mishits in the first place? The idea was which is longer. Why would you mishit a club to determine that?

R11s driver

R11 3 wood

Glide sole design 5 wood

Cleveland CG16 irons

Vokey SM4 48*, Vokey SM4 52*, Vokey SM4 56* wedges

Yes! Eleanor putter

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Originally Posted by Willie Malay

Why would you count mishits in the first place? The idea was which is longer. Why would you mishit a club to determine that?

Because any golfer not on the pro circuit will likely have mishits, and he was working off the definition of longer as being an average, not a best result. Either way though, a cavity back will probably go further than a blade when properly fit.

 

 

My bag:

Driver: G10 10.5* w/ Pro Launch Red Reg 

3 Wood: G10 w/ Pro Launch Red Reg 

18* and 21* hybrids: G10 with Pro Launch Red Stiff 

4-PW: Ping Eye 2 Irons w/ Reg GS 95 

56* and 60*: Tour-S Rustique Wedges w/ Stiff KBS Tour 

Putter: Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Newport 

 

 

 

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