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Casual Water

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

We have had a lot of rain this summer and the Keystone River course was as saturated as I have ever seen it today-  I must have play at least half a dozen shots from what I would normally consider casual water- not deep puddles, but visible water near my feet as I walked normally and/or took my stance.  I played it as it lay because the fairway lies were good and I didn't see any areas that were much drier nearby.

 

2 Questions-

 

1.  Was I correct to drop an embedded ball on the fairway into casual water and then play it from that spot?  There was no water visible from afar, but the pitch mark was 3/4 full of water when I removed the ball and water became visible near my feet as I took my stance after dropping.

 

2.  Had my ball come to rest in deep standing water, could I have considered my nearest point of relief a spot that did not have standing water visible from afar, but where the water became visible after I walked into the area to take a drop and/or took my stance?

post #2 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

We have had a lot of rain this summer and the Keystone River course was as saturated as I have ever seen it today-  I must have play at least half a dozen shots from what I would normally consider casual water- not deep puddles, but visible water near my feet as I walked normally and/or took my stance.  I played it as it lay because the fairway lies were good and I didn't see any areas that were much drier nearby.

 

2 Questions-

 

1.  Was I correct to drop an embedded ball on the fairway into casual water and then play it from that spot?  There was no water visible from afar, but the pitch mark was 3/4 full of water when I removed the ball and water became visible near my feet as I took my stance after dropping.

 

2.  Had my ball come to rest in deep standing water, could I have considered my nearest point of relief a spot that did not have standing water visible from afar, but where the water became visible after I walked into the area to take a drop and/or took my stance?s

If you choose to take relief from casual water, you must take complete relief, but you are not required to to take relief.  

 

If you take relief for an embedded ball, then you may drop where there is casual water.  

 

If you take relief from the casual water, then you must find a spot where the relief is complete for lie, stance and swing.  The only time that partial relief is allowed is when your ball lies in a bunker and there is no place in the bunker which gives complete relief.

post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

If you choose to take relief from casual water, you must take complete relief, but you are not required to to take relief.  

 

If you take relief for an embedded ball, then you may drop where there is casual water.  

 

If you take relief from the casual water, then you must find a spot where the relief is complete for lie, stance and swing.  The only time that partial relief is allowed is when your ball lies in a bunker and there is no place in the bunker which gives complete relief.

 

Thanks...so I was correct with #1.

 

RE 2, what is the logic behind not being able to drop from deep casual water into an area that is borderline casual water when trying to find a dry area is impractical?  Could a player seek a ruling in equity in this sort of situation?

post #4 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

RE 2, what is the logic behind not being able to drop from deep casual water into an area that is borderline casual water when trying to find a dry area is impractical?

 

Define "impractical." That's why.

 

If that was the rule, a player could easily say "it's impractical" and drop somewhere they'd like to drop when the nearest truly dry spot is behind a tree or somewhere they don't want to drop.

 

And if the course is so soaked that you can't find a spot within a reasonable distance, you probably shouldn't be playing, or if you are, everyone's got the same conditions, so you just play where it is because the nearest relief may be back on the tee or something.

post #5 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

If you choose to take relief from casual water, you must take complete relief, but you are not required to to take relief.  

 

If you take relief for an embedded ball, then you may drop where there is casual water.  

 

If you take relief from the casual water, then you must find a spot where the relief is complete for lie, stance and swing.  The only time that partial relief is allowed is when your ball lies in a bunker and there is no place in the bunker which gives complete relief.

 

Thanks...so I was correct with #1.

 

RE 2, what is the logic behind not being able to drop from deep casual water into an area that is borderline casual water when trying to find a dry area is impractical?  Could a player seek a ruling in equity in this sort of situation?

 

"Borderline" casual water does not exist. Casual water is well defined ... a player's feet or his ball is in it, or they're not. And, of course, if a player is too unhappy he's entitled to replay the stroke. (Golf is played out of doors.) 

post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

"Borderline" casual water does not exist. Casual water is well defined ... a player's feet or his ball is in it, or they're not. And, of course, if a player is too unhappy he's entitled to replay the stroke. (Golf is played out of doors.) 

 

By "borderline" I mean areas that you can't see any significant water UNTIL you step into them.  Obvious (or non borderline) casual water to me is standing puddles or deeper- aka areas where you can see the water BEFORE stepping down.

 

Replay the stroke?  So if I hit my tee ball 250 yard into a 3" deep puddle in the fairway and water appears every step I take between the tee box and my ball but without puddles present (except for the one I am in), then I have the option of either playing from the 3" deep puddle on the fairway or going back to the tee and replaying?  What if the tee box qualified as casual water (which was the case today on the hole where my ball embedded on the fairway)?  What would I be laying after "replaying"?  I assume I still have to count my original, so would I be hitting 2?

post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

"Borderline" casual water does not exist. Casual water is well defined ... a player's feet or his ball is in it, or they're not. And, of course, if a player is too unhappy he's entitled to replay the stroke. (Golf is played out of doors.) 

 

By "borderline" I mean areas that you can't see any significant water UNTIL you step into them.  Obvious (or non borderline) casual water to me is standing puddles or deeper- aka areas where you can see the water BEFORE stepping down.

 

Replay the stroke?  So if I hit my tee ball 250 yard into a 3" deep puddle in the fairway and water appears every step I take between the tee box and my ball but without puddles present (except for the one I am in), then I have the option of either playing from the 3" deep puddle on the fairway or going back to the tee and replaying?  What if the tee box qualified as casual water (which was the case today on the hole where my ball embedded on the fairway)?  What would I be laying after "replaying"?  I assume I still have to count my original, so would I be hitting 2?

 

No, if you replay, it's stroke and distance - Rule 28.  If the course is that bad, you shouldn't be playing at all.  If you can't play under the rules, the course is unplayable, and the round should be postponed.  

post #8 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

"Borderline" casual water does not exist. Casual water is well defined ... a player's feet or his ball is in it, or they're not. And, of course, if a player is too unhappy he's entitled to replay the stroke. (Golf is played out of doors.) 

 

By "borderline" I mean areas that you can't see any significant water UNTIL you step into them.  Obvious (or non borderline) casual water to me is standing puddles or deeper- aka areas where you can see the water BEFORE stepping down.

 

Replay the stroke?  So if I hit my tee ball 250 yard into a 3" deep puddle in the fairway and water appears every step I take between the tee box and my ball but without puddles present (except for the one I am in), then I have the option of either playing from the 3" deep puddle on the fairway or going back to the tee and replaying?  What if the tee box qualified as casual water (which was the case today on the hole where my ball embedded on the fairway)?  What would I be laying after "replaying"?  I assume I still have to count my original, so would I be hitting 2?

 

For a guy who previously boasted that he knew more about the Rules than anyone else he knew, life is tough. It cannot be any fun being you.

post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

No, if you replay, it's stroke and distance - Rule 28.  If the course is that bad, you shouldn't be playing at all.  If you can't play under the rules, the course is unplayable, and the round should be postponed.  

The course was very wet, but there was not a lot of visible standing water and actually played pretty well up until the 15th hole when it started to rain heavily.  The guys I was with quit at that point, but our short golf season is starting to wind down, so I continued on and the rain let up by the time I finished 16.  I didn't make worse than a bogey all day and had 3 birdies, so while I chose to play out of what was technically considered casual water a number of times I thought the course was playable other than the possibility (that did NOT happen to me) of winding up in a puddle with no viable drop options.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

For a guy who previously boasted that he knew more about the Rules than anyone else he knew, life is tough. It cannot be any fun being you.

I think my life is pretty good- having to concern yourself with no viable drop options when your ball is in a puddle of water is a lot better than what some of my fellow Coloradans are currently experiencing  

http://www.mycenturylink.com/news/read/category/Top%20News/article/ap-colorado_flooding_cuts_off_mountain_town-ap

post #10 of 16
I think his point was that for someone who says they know the rules-That you ask a lot of easy rules questions you can look up for yerself, but dont. Casual water rules are not that difficult to understnad-Put your self proclaimed high IQ to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

I think my life is pretty good- having to concern yourself with no viable drop options when your ball is in a puddle of water is a lot better than what some of my fellow Coloradans are currently experiencing  
http://www.mycenturylink.com/news/read/category/Top%20News/article/ap-colorado_flooding_cuts_off_mountain_town-ap
post #11 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

I think his point was that for someone who says they know the rules-That you ask a lot of easy rules questions you can look up for yerself, but dont. Casual water rules are not that difficult to understnad-Put your self proclaimed high IQ to work.

 

I was pretty confident that I knew the answers but have been surprised a few times in the past so figured it was worth getting confirmation.  I also wanted to point out how potential unfair situations could arise on a really wet course.  I realize that casual water is covered by the rules, so maybe 1-4 doesn't apply, but it seems like a guy in an isolated 3" deep puddle in the middle of the fairway with much more playable and less obvious casual water nearby falls through the cracks of the current rules. 

 

4 Putt said that you shouldn't play if the current rules make the course unplayable- I guess that is one option, but when the course is open and I have the time, I would rather play than not play and would like it if the rules handled this type of situation better.

 

For the record, I do realize that this doesn't occur frequently and that most of the time the current casual water rules handle most situations just fine.  I might not worry about this if I lived in So Cal, but our season is short here, so I wish the rules had some common sense element to them that could handle unique situations in a fair way to all players.

post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

I think his point was that for someone who says they know the rules-That you ask a lot of easy rules questions you can look up for yerself, but dont. Casual water rules are not that difficult to understnad-Put your self proclaimed high IQ to work.

 

4 Putt said that you shouldn't play if the current rules make the course unplayable- I guess that is one option, but when the course is open and I have the time, I would rather play than not play and would like it if the rules handled this type of situation better.

 

In that case, just play and forget the rules for that round.  If you must play when the conditions are such that the rules become untenable, then play and just don't worry about it.  

post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

In that case, just play and forget the rules for that round.  If you must play when the conditions are such that the rules become untenable, then play and just don't worry about it.

 

Well said.

post #14 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

In that case, just play and forget the rules for that round.  If you must play when the conditions are such that the rules become untenable, then play and just don't worry about it.  

 

That's definitely an option BUT what if you have a friendly wager with someone in your group or, as is the case up here where they don't reschedule Men's league for weather?

post #15 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

In that case, just play and forget the rules for that round.  If you must play when the conditions are such that the rules become untenable, then play and just don't worry about it.  

 

That's definitely an option BUT what if you have a friendly wager with someone in your group or, as is the case up here where they don't reschedule Men's league for weather?

 

Then you and your betting competitor decide between you how to address such issues.  Nobody is going to toss you in the clink because you chose to modify a rule when all parties concerned in the wager are in agreement.  Use some common sense.   This question shouldn't even have needed to be asked.

post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I was pretty confident that I knew the answers but have been surprised a few times in the past so figured it was worth getting confirmation.

 

I suggest - as has been suggested to you in the past - that you write down what you think the answer is in your post. Otherwise you come off as ignorant to the Rules, and get responses like Phil's.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I also wanted to point out how potential unfair situations could arise on a really wet course.

 

Nothing about that rule is unfair. You don't LIKE it, but it's not unfair. It applies the same to everyone. The conditions are the same for all, and everyone is required to take complete relief or play it as it lies.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

4 Putt said that you shouldn't play if the current rules make the course unplayable- I guess that is one option, but when the course is open and I have the time, I would rather play than not play and would like it if the rules handled this type of situation better.

 

I think the rules handle it just fine. If they handled it your way, you'd have people trying to argue that this is the nearest area of "enough" relief from the casual water, and not that area over there behind the trees.

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