Jump to content
IGNORED

Dear Forum


Will
Note: This thread is 5964 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

I would like to open a discussion concerning the parameters of argument in this forum. In the recent thread "problem with handicap system," I made several posts, some of which were edited by EB. It was, and still is, a spirited discussion involving the way handicaps are computed. However, the way my posts were edited would leave some to believe I had made rude or otherwise obnoxious comments about another poster.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

In one edited post, I had charged EB with using debating tactics, instead of reasoned argument. I pointedly described why I felt he had ignored the meat of the discussion, and taken some of my arguments out of context. I also pointed out an error he had made in his previous post regarding a formula. EB deleted all of that post, except for my concluding remark, which happened to agree with him. He then edited his previous post to fix his error.

This type of forum editing is not conducive to a full and reasoned debate, or to the exchange of information. In fact, it defeats the purpose of a forum, since only one side can be heard.

I respectfully urge EB to reconsider the edits he has made to my posts, and to let the forum members at large decide if they were rude, as charged. To do this, all of the edits to the thread must be restored, so that the true context of the thread can be seen.

If more latitude is not allowed to the posters of the forum, debate and fruitful argument cannot exist. Then, I ask you, what is the ultimate point? To provide yes-men to the admin? I'm not here to challenge EB's authority, that's not my point. I simply want to try to point out that this forum can be a better place, it can be a great place to argue and discover truths, if only we are allowed to do so.
Ping G10 9° driver
Taylormade Burner 3-wood
Taylormade Rescue 16°
Taylormade Rac OS 5-PW
Ping G2 3-4Titleist Vokey SM54.14, SM60.08Odyssey Marxman putterTitleist Pro-V1 balls
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Is it common practice on this forum for admin to edit a person's post without their permission? I refer to editing the text in a post, not to deleting it entirely.

Driver: Cobra 460SZ 9.0, med.
3 Wood: Taylor stiff
3-hybrid: Nike 18 deg stiff
4-hybrid:
Taylor RBZ 22 deg regular
Irons:5-9, Mizuno MP30, steel
Wedges: PW, 52, 56, 60 Mizuno MP30
Putter: Odyssey 2-ball

Link to comment
Share on other sites


As I am the long-time admin of another forum myself, I understand that you have to abide by the rules of the admin, whether you think they're fair or not. Since he is the creator of this place, he gets to set the rules. And in the same vein, it doesn't necessarily mean he has to go by the same rules as you might be used to somewhere else.

EB and I had a similar sort of issue in the past. He edited my post, and then PM'ed me to tell me why he did so. I didn't really agree with him, but I accepted his ruling on the issue and moved on. Being the admin of another forum for the past 8 or so years, I understand what it's like to be on the other end of this. You're not always going to agree with the admin's ruling, but if you enjoy the forum enough, you work within the rules so you can continue enjoying it.

EB just runs a tight ship around here. I am sure he means well, and what he does he does in an effort to try and head off a problem before it occurs. If he was pissing everyone off, they'd leave the forums and he'd eventually be left to himself and the tumbleweeds. Obviously the majority doesn't think he's all that bad because his forums seem pretty active to me. :)
"The only thing in my bag that works is the bug spray."

In My Bag:
Big Bertha 454 Titanium (10º)
Big Bertha Fairway Woods Ping G2 HL (Black Dot) Ping M/B (56º & 52º) Mizuno MP-R Series (60º) Odyssey Black Series i #7
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I put myself into the "penalty box" and deserved it.When I told E.B. I would not repeat my actions and asked for a second chance he accepted me back in.I too say that if you don't like the ship you can always get off at the next port.I know I'm am sailing onward though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Roody,
I understand your explanation of the possible rationale for the practice, and of course you are correct (how could it be otherwise?) that the entity that administers a forum can run it any way they please. This is trivially true, but I must say that it is also a highly mistaken policy. If I were to have a post of mine edited in any way without my knowledge, I would object strenuously and publicly. In my opinion this is a species of fraud, to tamper with what someone else has written without their permission. The admin person may say to his or her self, "well, the poster can always just delete their [edited] post if they aren't satisfied with my work". Totally spurious. The fact remains, a false and misleading "post" has been created that does not reflect the views of the person whose name appears as the author.

I have written a good deal of text to be read by others in the past three decades or so, mostly published in scientific journals but in other places as well - including various e-magazines and internet forums. Often, what I wrote originally was edited to some extent before publication, and I can say that in the case of one or two scientific papers the reviewer's comments improved the final product. BUT, I always agreed with all of the changes before the piece was actually published. In some cases I did not, and the paper was published elsewhere. Totally different scenario.

Candidly, anything else is intellectually dishonest and fundamentally flawed editorial policy - on the internet or in any other medium. I have never seen it practiced in any journal, or magazine, or any internet forum that I have participated in (which would be quite a few in various fields).

Is an explanation and justification for this policy written somewhere on this website?
Charles.

Driver: Cobra 460SZ 9.0, med.
3 Wood: Taylor stiff
3-hybrid: Nike 18 deg stiff
4-hybrid:
Taylor RBZ 22 deg regular
Irons:5-9, Mizuno MP30, steel
Wedges: PW, 52, 56, 60 Mizuno MP30
Putter: Odyssey 2-ball

Link to comment
Share on other sites


In one edited post, I had charged EB with using debating tactics, instead of reasoned argument. I pointedly described why I felt he had ignored the meat of the discussion, and taken some of my arguments out of context. I also pointed out an error he had made in his previous post regarding a formula. EB deleted all of that post, except for my concluding remark, which happened to agree with him. He then edited his previous post to fix his error.

So you think he was unfairly deleting/editing your posts in order to help his argument?

I have never heard of EB so i cannot comment on him personally but i do know that on some forums the best Mods use there power to their advantage, for example on one forum i was on, a person selling trainers got there thread locked by a Mod, why? because the Mod was selling the same line of trainers and didn't want competition. Also having not seen the thread i do not know what happened, my suggestion would be PM the Mod and talk about it via Pm's.

In my Ping UCLAN Team Bag

Nike Sasqautch 9.5 - V2 Stiff
Cleveland HiBore 15 - V2 Stiff
Ben Hogan Apex FTX, 2 - PW - Dynamic Gold StiffNike SV Tour 52, 58 - Dynamic Golf StiffYes Golf Callie - 33 inchesBall - Srixon Z star X

Link to comment
Share on other sites


As I am the long-time admin of another forum myself, I understand that you have to abide by the rules of the admin, whether you think they're fair or not. Since he is the creator of this place, he gets to set the rules. And in the same vein, it doesn't necessarily mean he has to go by the same rules as you might be used to somewhere else.

I think he means well, too. I like his forum, and his podcasts, and his website. I can't really figure out what's going on in this case. I believe I've posted responsibly, and within the rules of the forum. I haven't had any email or communication from EB regarding this.

Ping G10 9° driver
Taylormade Burner 3-wood
Taylormade Rescue 16°
Taylormade Rac OS 5-PW
Ping G2 3-4Titleist Vokey SM54.14, SM60.08Odyssey Marxman putterTitleist Pro-V1 balls
Link to comment
Share on other sites


So you think he was unfairly deleting/editing your posts in order to help his argument?

EB is Erik J. Barzeski, or IACAS. I would be happy to discuss the issue with him. Ultimately, the issue is larger than the present discussion. To wit: is editing of members' posts without explanation or notification a reasonable poilicy? Does it promote or retard discussion? Does it serve the interests of the members, or of the admin?

These are reasonable questions.
Ping G10 9° driver
Taylormade Burner 3-wood
Taylormade Rescue 16°
Taylormade Rac OS 5-PW
Ping G2 3-4Titleist Vokey SM54.14, SM60.08Odyssey Marxman putterTitleist Pro-V1 balls
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Roody,

In regard to your last question, I believe in the FAQ it says that admins can edit posts. It doesn't qualify that statement. That needs to be addressed.

Your points are well taken, and I appreciate the support. For an admin to edit posts for the purpose of expunging material detrimental to his argument, and then to either not notify the membership of the change, or to give a spurious explanation (as in "rude comments deleted"), is to attempt to control the argument for his own benefit.
Ping G10 9° driver
Taylormade Burner 3-wood
Taylormade Rescue 16°
Taylormade Rac OS 5-PW
Ping G2 3-4Titleist Vokey SM54.14, SM60.08Odyssey Marxman putterTitleist Pro-V1 balls
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Dear Will:

I am not an admin for this forum or, in any other way, officially connected to it. I have been a member since November 2005. I have made over 380 posts to the forum. I appreciate your concerns and wanted to share some observations. My posts have never been edited to my knowledge. I was involved in a heated exchange with a fellow member that got a bit off topic. This other fellow and I were given pretty free reign to go after our points. I think he was even allowed to make an ass of himself; I am sure he thinks likewise of me. My point is that in the time I've been a part of this group I have not noticed too heavy a hand in the administration of this site; sometimes quite the contrary. I regret your experience has not been as satisfactory as mine. I would hope that you would give the website a little more time. Continue to participate. After a while, determine if this is the best forum for you. I hope you find that the Sand Trap is right for you. I think it's one of the more entertaining sites of its kind available. Well, this is just the braying of one ass, but there it is.

Sincerely, A Member

shortgame85
In the Bag:
Driver: :TaylorMade: RBZ 9.5 Reg Flex
3 Wood :TaylorMade: RBZ Reg Flex
Hybrid: Ping G25 Hybrids 17*, 20*, 23*

Irons:Ping G25 5-Gap Wedge, Sr Flex, Vokey 56.14 Spin Mill NS Pro Reg, Flex

Putter: Bobby Grace Center Shaft 32"

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Roody,

I don't disagree with you. If he's editing posts because he simply doesn't like the poster, or the content, or he's just having a bad day, then that's obviously unethical. I'm not saying that is or isn't happening.

Technically, it's our privilege to post here, not our right. Conversely, if EB doesn't appreciate his members, it will eventually take its toll on his membership numbers. Seeing as he's been around for a while, and he's got plenty of members, then he must be doing right by them for the most part.
"The only thing in my bag that works is the bug spray."

In My Bag:
Big Bertha 454 Titanium (10º)
Big Bertha Fairway Woods Ping G2 HL (Black Dot) Ping M/B (56º & 52º) Mizuno MP-R Series (60º) Odyssey Black Series i #7
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I ran an online forum for about a year and I can honestly say that is something I will never do again. A lot of time is spent dealing with spam issues, moderating and general administration.

Personally, I believe there is a fine line between censorship and allowing forum members to have absolute freedom to post whatever they want. There were a few instances where I removed a post, or an entire thread due to the negative nature of comments. I did not take the decision to do this lightly, and I did have some incredibly lengthly emails sent to me regarding my decision. A few members disagreed with my decision, and they are entitled to their opinions, but ultimately the decision is up to the administrator.

Regarding editing posts, that is also up to the admin, but I feel a better policy is all or nothing. If an admin feels that a post is too negative, my opinion is that is should be removed completely, not edited, and an email sent to the poster regarding the decision to remove the post.

Just my .02.

BTW, I love this site/forum, and I plan on continuing on as an active member.

909D-Comp
909F-2
585H Hybrids
755 Irons
Vokey Wedges 2-Ball F7 B330S

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I think the main problem with internet forums in general is that everyone who posts is "anonymous". In other words, people act much differently than they would in real life. When there is a feeling of anonymity, what comes with it is a feeling that you are less responsible for your behavior. After all, if they don't know who you are and they have no way of ever knowing who you are, then you can act out as you like and there are no consequences for it.

As a forum admin, you are faced with the challenge of providing a fun and open environment, but have to also balance the fact that there are plenty of idiots who will think and act as I described above. So you have to lock down some things, throw out a few restrictions. Sometimes the restrictions ruin things for the good members, which sucks. But it's a necessary evil if you want to run a forum that is enjoyable for most people.

Free speech only applies as long as you're not infringing on the rights of others in the process.
"The only thing in my bag that works is the bug spray."

In My Bag:
Big Bertha 454 Titanium (10º)
Big Bertha Fairway Woods Ping G2 HL (Black Dot) Ping M/B (56º & 52º) Mizuno MP-R Series (60º) Odyssey Black Series i #7
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
One (and only one) of Will's posts was edited. It says so right there at the bottom - we're not trying to hide anything.

It was edited because:
a) Part was rude and off-topic (Will doesn't like how I discuss things)
b) Part offered a correction of one of my previous posts

I made the correction to my post so as not to confuse future readers of the thread. That made his "correction" meaningless as well, so I removed it. The correction simply involved the words "differential" (which I think the USGA misuses, personally) and "difference."

The policy and practice on this forum are that moderators and administrators can edit posts as they see fit. However, in every case, it says so right on the post - "edited by" with a name and a reason, and we take great pains not to do it unless justified.

Users have (I think) something like 30 minutes to edit their own posts. I've often edited posts to do things like add youtube tags (so youtube videos show inline), fix typos or bad information, etc.

Will has made no recent (past few months) attempts to email or PM me, and though I find this public attempt to share his side of the story to be rather tactless (particularly the "fact enhancement") given the relative ease of finding my IM, PM, and Email contact information, it will stand. Not in Golf Talk, though - what's this got to do with golf? Nada.

Will, you're on thin ice. When a member comes to me and has problems with some other member, I tell them to work it out between themselves, privately. The same should apply here.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Both sides of the argument explained, this seems to be a simple misunderstanding, fair enough to Will for complaining but it should really have been done via PM. Don't feel the thin ice threat was necessary but its good to get the reasons why the posts were edited cleared up.

Now kiss and make up

In my Ping UCLAN Team Bag

Nike Sasqautch 9.5 - V2 Stiff
Cleveland HiBore 15 - V2 Stiff
Ben Hogan Apex FTX, 2 - PW - Dynamic Gold StiffNike SV Tour 52, 58 - Dynamic Golf StiffYes Golf Callie - 33 inchesBall - Srixon Z star X

Link to comment
Share on other sites


One (and only one) of Will's posts was edited. It says so right there at the bottom - we're not trying to hide anything.

Interesting take. As a former moderator of a game forum, I understand the problems a mod must deal with. In my case, the forum was founded by the members, who elected their mods. We were governed by a charter, and could not, for example, simply edit a post without full disclosure to the poster and to the forum. I understand that you run this forum, so you can do what you want. If you wanted to edit my post and not tell me about it, or tell the forum, I guess that's fine. And I appreciate the fact that this thread is intact.

As to not sending you a message, actually I did. It was to the address at cynicalpeak software. I signed up to test your beta program, complimented you on your work, and offered to have you play golf at my home course next time you visited Los Angeles. I thought that might be a good way to initiate a discussion. You say that I initiated a tactless attempt to present my side of the story, which involved fact enhancement. But let me ask you a relevant question: how can anyone verify the accuracy of that statement, when you have the power to edit posts? The problem here is this: you are both a mod and a poster. If you are involved in a "spirited" discussion, there is only one possible outcome. But look, the only reason I'm taking the time to write these posts is that I think this is a pretty cool golf forum. I haven't found another like it (though I haven't done an exhaustive search). So my long-winded point is this: if you want to attract people who will engage in spirited debate, and grow the forum, consider having an election for a 3-person panel of moderators. This will separate the owner of the forum from the moderation function, thus reducing or eliminating any perceived conflicts-of-interest. It would also reduce your workload, while increasing member interest and participation. What do you think?
Ping G10 9° driver
Taylormade Burner 3-wood
Taylormade Rescue 16°
Taylormade Rac OS 5-PW
Ping G2 3-4Titleist Vokey SM54.14, SM60.08Odyssey Marxman putterTitleist Pro-V1 balls
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
As to not sending you a message, actually I did.

You seem to enjoy picking nits, so how's this: You never contacted me privately about handicapping or editing posts. I think doing so would have been the proper thing to do.

The emails you sent about the beta test were quickly scanned (by me) to make sure they were legit (not spam or something), then handed off to a script that grabs the name and email address and puts them in the bug and mailing list software. I don't even know your last name at this point.
how can anyone verify the accuracy of that statement, when you have the power to edit posts?

Because I cannot change the "edited by" piece that's appended to the post when it's edited. The truth is you felt the need to "enhance" your facts in order to make a stronger point. I'll stand by the edits I made - I removed rude parts and parts that were simply out of date given the corrections I made in my post to the use of the word "differential."

If you are involved in a "spirited" discussion, there is only one possible outcome.

Will, I'm not sure you're around often enough to say that, and in the very thread about which you speak I changed my mind. I still don't agree the slope should be flipped (i.e. 113/slope), but my mind changed from "what problem?" to "okay, just eliminate slope for scores below the rating."

consider having an election for a 3-person panel of moderators.

No thanks. I see no value at all in "separating the owner from the moderation function." And we currently have 10 moderators on the forum (myself included) because all staff (and some former staff) are moderators.

Furthermore, I think we've (the moderator team) done a pretty darn good job so far. The comments made by others in this thread seem to back that up. We don't have much of a spam problem - I'm usually quick to catch the few who sneak by. We don't often have threads that wander off topic. Members are civil to each other. We only have one person on our banned list and with a reputation of -15, you can bet he deserved it. You're free to believe we stink, and I'm not really going to try that hard to convince you otherwise. I'm content with the job we've done and will likely continue to do. In the end, this thread exists simply because you don't like how I engage in a "spirited" discussion. You don't like that I tend to reply by quoting appropriate pieces and responding to them piecemeal. You don't like that I edited your post in order to try to keep things civil. So be it. I'm not one to hold a grudge or anything - you're still on the beta test, you're still an "Established Member" - but I'm also not one to enjoy wasting my time or the time of others. I believe I've clarified myself and explained things clearly here, so now let's move on.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I think he was even allowed to make an ass of himself; I am sure he thinks likewise of me.

I certainly do now.

As for the topic at hand, I like the bit more free reign given here so long as a modicum of respect and maturity is observed.

Cleveland Launcher Comp, 9.5* stiff
TaylorMade V-Steel, T/S stiff
Cleveland Halo, 19* stiff
Mizuno MP-32, stiff
Cleveland 588 Gunmetal, 51*Cleveland 588 DSG RTG, 56*Scotty Cameron Newport II

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Note: This thread is 5964 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...