Embedded Ball Rule

[hunterdog]

After Torrey Pines with Patrick Reed and Rory and the embedded ball issues does anyone else think that golfers should call in a fellow competitor to confirm that the ball is, in fact, embedded.  Leave the ball as is, call over the fellow competitor to check if ball embedded, and then move the ball, if necessary to confirm (mark the ball’s position first) and, if appropriate, take relief.  Only if there was a disagreement would a rules official be needed. It would only take a couple of minutes, it would help protect the field, and would avoid controversy.  

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

does anyone else think that golfers should call in a fellow competitor to confirm that the ball is, in fact, embedded.

No.

Remember, too, that the Rules of Golf apply to more than the PGA Tour.

And in 2019, the provision to notify/allow your marker/fellow competitor for lifting a ball to check if it's cut/cracked or to identify it was even removed.

[hunterdog]

Even in amateur golf having a fellow competitor confirm that the ball is embedded would only take a couple of minutes.  I do know that the rule was changed in latest set of  revisions but I fail to see how this change improved the game or pace of play.  We golfers often rely upon our fellow competitors to assist with rulings, such as where a ball crossed into a hazard. 

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

I do know that the rule was changed in latest set of  revisions but I fail to see how this change improved the game or pace of play.

Well if I was 100 yards away from you and called you over to look at my ball that would certainly slow down pace of play.

3 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

We golfers often rely upon our fellow competitors to assist with rulings, such as where a ball crossed into a hazard. 

No. We as golfers rely upon ourselves first and foremost to know the rules of the game we are playing.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

Even in amateur golf having a fellow competitor confirm that the ball is embedded would only take a couple of minutes.

That sounds like a waste of a couple of minutes.

I don't care if it's 15 seconds. That's a waste of that time. And imagine if you're a competitor, and you're constantly being asked to go over to look at someone's lie. No thank you.

3 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

We golfers often rely upon our fellow competitors to assist with rulings, such as where a ball crossed into a hazard. 

"We" shouldn't need to "rely" on them: we should know and be able to apply the rules on our own.

Yes, I'll say "you good with a drop here guys?" but they can be on the other side of the fairway for that one.

[hunterdog]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:32 PM, iacas said:

That sounds like a waste of a couple of minutes.

I don't care if it's 15 seconds. That's a waste of that time. And imagine if you're a competitor, and you're constantly being asked to go over to look at someone's lie. No thank you.

"We" shouldn't need to "rely" on them: we should know and be able to apply the rules on our own.

Yes, I'll say "you good with a drop here guys?" but they can be on the other side of the fairway for that one.

I agree with you, in theory.  However, I have had to “assist” numerous competitors take proper drops when taking relief from hazards and unplayable lies.  As competitors, we have an obligation to protect the field.  Obviously, I am referring to tournament play and not the casual weekend rounds.

 

Also, isn’t this the other side of not being able to post solo played rounds for handicap?  We can’t post because no one to verify.  If we are responsible for our own rules knowledge, and following the rules, including correct score keeping, why not post solo round scores?

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

I agree with you, in theory.  However, I have had to “assist” numerous competitors take proper drops when taking relief from hazards and unplayable lies.  As competitors, we have an obligation to protect the field.  Obviously, I am referring to tournament play and not the casual weekend rounds.

Protecting the field only applies when someone is doing something wrong (or you suspect he would or will do something wrong). If a competitor asks you where his ball last crossed, that's just acting in the spirit of the game and being helpful.

It's not "protecting the field" to constantly ask your playing partners to come over to observe you lifting a ball to check if it's embedded (or whatever) - that's just being annoying and slowing down the game. Do you expect your partners to say "come over here, I want you to verify that I'm clearly taking a normal stance and my right foot is on the cart path?" I hope not.

23 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

Also, isn’t this the other side of not being able to post solo played rounds for handicap? We can’t post because no one to verify. If we are responsible for our own rules knowledge, and following the rules, including correct score keeping, why not post solo round scores?

That's not the same thing at all, and was discussed heavily in 2016 as well as recently when I started another topic about that, curious how many people were still posting solo rounds in 2021.

[hunterdog]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:17 AM, iacas said:

Protecting the field only applies when someone is doing something wrong (or you suspect he would or will do something wrong). If a competitor asks you where his ball last crossed, that's just acting in the spirit of the game and being helpful.

It's not "protecting the field" to constantly ask your playing partners to come over to observe you lifting a ball to check if it's embedded (or whatever) - that's just being annoying and slowing down the game. Do you expect your partners to say "come over here, I want you to verify that I'm clearly taking a normal stance and my right foot is on the cart path?" I hope not.

That's not the same thing at all, and was discussed heavily in 2016 as well as recently when I started another topic about that, curious how many people were still posting solo rounds in 2021.

I really do appreciate your thoughts on these situations. I do think that anytime a player has “ball in hand” the player should, at least, announce to fellow competitors why he/she has touched the ball (excluding obvious instances such as ball in penalty area).  I don’t think it slows down play to ask fellow competitor, when iffy conditions exist, such as embedded ball when course is relatively dry, relief from cart path when nearest point puts ball into brush, etc.  Again, during the casual weekend round, I would almost always yell over “do what you think is right” because we want to move play along, the fact that they asked suggests they are not trying to take unfair advantage, and, mainly, if someone needs to take “unfair advantage” it’s unlikely they’ll be in my group the next weekend.  But that’s just me.

 

 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

I do think that anytime a player has “ball in hand” the player should, at least, announce to fellow competitors why he/she has touched the ball (excluding obvious instances such as ball in penalty area).

Okay. I don't. If you think someone is cheating, what's announcing it going to change? Virtually nothing, as he can still cheat when you're 30 yards away. What it could do is provide another "gotcha" way for the mostly honest people to either get penalized or to argue over whether it was an "obvious instance." Requiring an announcement and/or further measures slows down the game, complicates the game, removes a bit of the assumption of integrity from golfers, and will lead to more stupid penalties and/or arguments.

11 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

I don’t think it slows down play to ask fellow competitor, when iffy conditions exist, such as embedded ball when course is relatively dry, relief from cart path when nearest point puts ball into brush, etc.

It very clearly does.

And where did the "when course is relatively dry" come from, or what place does it have in this discussion? You're conjuring situations that seem "obvious" in your mind, and yet… to someone even 50 yards away, may appear completely differently. Maybe a sprinkler head broke and an area is very soft. The ball is obviously embedded, and yet now someone has to walk from 50 yards away to observe? Or even just announcing it… What would actually change about the situation? Besides pace of play being slowed down and a possible argument/penalty situation arising?

11 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

the fact that they asked suggests they are not trying to take unfair advantage

You complain about the USGA not trusting you to post solo scores (even though that wasn't in the top three reasons for the change), but then want to add this to the Rules, distrusting people even in a "casual weekend round."

It sounds like with your last statement you already have a way of dealing with this.