Dr. Kwon's Functional Swing Plane vs. Chris Ryan Hand Path Explained

[Warlock]

Just seen this Dr Kwon video below about functional swing plane but cannot reconcile his opinion that the club shaft remains on that plane between MD (P6) and ZC (Zero lead wrist cocking - approx P7.3)   vs Chris Ryan's video further below.  Please see 15:00 - 17:22 where he says the mid-hand-point and the clubhead (and therefore whole club shaft) are swinging on that functional swing plane.

Chris Ryan says that the hands move in as the clubhead moves out and when I took a snapshot blur image (see further below) , the club shaft doesn't seem to be swinging on some constant functional swing plane. 

I cannot understand how the lead hand grip section can still remain on some unchanging functional plane if there is an angle between the lead arm and club shaft approaching impact while the forearm supinates to try and square the clubface.

Am I making a mistake somewhere in my interpretation of these videos?

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Warlock
correcting title

[phillyk]

The clubhead and hands will move on different planes. Dr Kwon’s FSP is based on clubhead only. The hands plane and FSP may intersect but not be on same angle from DTL.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, phillyk said:

The clubhead and hands will move on different planes. Dr Kwon’s FSP is based on clubhead only. The hands plane and FSP may intersect but not be on same angle from DTL.

In addition to what @phillyk said, what you're missing from down-the-line is how far ahead the hands are. The hands start going left while the clubhead still goes out because the hands are farther "around" than the clubhead.

You can see the measured traces of the shaft (basically) on GEARS and they're pretty planar from 6-7.5. The shaft is moving too fast at that point for it to have too much of a "kink" to it.

[Warlock]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

In addition to what @phillyk said, what you're missing from down-the-line is how far ahead the hands are. The hands start going left while the clubhead still goes out because the hands are farther "around" than the clubhead.

You can see the measured traces of the shaft (basically) on GEARS and they're pretty planar from 6-7.5. The shaft is moving too fast at that point for it to have too much of a "kink" to it.

Many thanks.

I did ask Dr Kwon on his you-tube channel and he's replied below.  I'm more inclined to believe that @phillyk is correct that the hands and clubhead move on different planes so maybe its just a very close approximation that the whole shaft is moving on the same functional plane.

"Between MD and ZC, if the midhand point is on the FSP, the individual hand centers should be on the plane, too. The midhand point and the hand centers are all defined along the shaft. If the shaft aligns along the FSP, all these points should be on the plane between MD and ZC."

In the video he says from mid downswing to zero cocking the hand centre stays pretty much on the swing plane. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Warlock

[iacas]

He’s not saying anything different than Phil or myself. Both of us have spent several hours with him.

His answer mostly talked about the geometry because obviously if the midhand point is on a line both hands are on the same line.

[Warlock]

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

He’s not saying anything different than Phil or myself. Both of us have spent several hours with him.

His answer mostly talked about the geometry because obviously if the midhand point is on a line both hands are on the same line.

 Are you saying the same things?

Here is a diagram from Dr Kwon's website. 

• The mid-hand-point generally staying on the FSP between MD-ZC . 
• The clubhead is on the FSP between MD-ZC
• The shaft is on the FSP between MD-ZC
• The midhand point and the hand centers are all defined along the shaft. If the shaft aligns along the FSP, all these points should be on the plane between MD and ZC."

Phil said :

"The clubhead and hands will move on different planes"

 

 

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, Warlock said:

 Are you saying the same things?

Yes.

27 minutes ago, Warlock said:

• The mid-hand-point generally staying on the FSP between MD-ZC . 
• The clubhead is on the FSP between MD-ZC
• The shaft is on the FSP between MD-ZC

The third thing doesn't say anything that the first two points don't say. If mid-hand-point and clubhead are on the plane, then so is the shaft (within reasonable measurements given the rotation of the clubhead). i.e. point 3 is a given because of the first two points.

27 minutes ago, Warlock said:

• The midhand point and the hand centers are all defined along the shaft. If the shaft aligns along the FSP, all these points should be on the plane between MD and ZC."

Also a given. The two hands are on the shaft, and so if the mid-hand-point is on the plane, and the shaft and clubhead are on the plane, so are both hands.

27 minutes ago, Warlock said:

Phil said :

"The clubhead and hands will move on different planes"

He didn't say when.

Look in the graphic at how little the hands move from MD to ZC.

That distance is so short it would have to bend a BUNCH to get on a different plane there.

They're on different planes at different parts of the swing, but generally speaking from MD to ZC, the shaft (and thus clubhead, and hands) create a very planar arc. How far do the hands move there - 20 inches?

I'll add two more things:

1. Dr. Kwon says "generally." Not "always."
2. Phil says this:

15 hours ago, phillyk said:

The hands plane and FSP may intersect but not be on same angle from DTL.

The 2D image you posted in your first post is a down-the-line look, but it's not 3D and you can't twist and orient the camera to see where things truly moved.

At the end of the day this is a measured thing, not necessarily something you "try to do.

P.S. Also, the poster frame for the Ryan video is exaggerated. The clubhead is generally not that far inside the hands at 6.2. At lower speeds of course you can twist the "plane" so that it is no longer a plane.

[phillyk]

 

This is only me, but it’s a reasonable example of an in to out path. The blue lines represent where FSP is likely to be. Red line is pretty close to hand plane. Tough part is and the nice thing about better systems like GEARS is that you would then rotate the camera view to be with the FSP. The hands move a little from this view. We know they are moving toward target. They will stay close to or on FSP. It won’t be perfect. Between 6 and 7, the body is actually decelerating as hands release the club to move all the energy into clubhead. Basically we hope the hands aren’t moving much from this DTL or FSP view. 

[Warlock]

5 hours ago, phillyk said:

 

This is only me, but it’s a reasonable example of an in to out path. The blue lines represent where FSP is likely to be. Red line is pretty close to hand plane. Tough part is and the nice thing about better systems like GEARS is that you would then rotate the camera view to be with the FSP. The hands move a little from this view. We know they are moving toward target. They will stay close to or on FSP. It won’t be perfect. Between 6 and 7, the body is actually decelerating as hands release the club to move all the energy into clubhead. Basically we hope the hands aren’t moving much from this DTL or FSP view. 

Hi Phil

I'm a little confused when you say the blue lines represent where the FSP is likely to be . Here is Figure1  from Dr Kwon & others research article (link below).

https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/5641/5134

Am I wrong in assuming that the image is portraying a functional swing plane (like a sheet of glass) cutting through the mid-trunk of the golfer? Therefore, when one looks at a pure DTL view of a golfers swing the FSP should look like a single inclined line?  Your blue lines look to have different slopes when viewed in 2D  DTL from P6-P7, so I am assuming you are inferring that the slope angles are actually the same relative to the ground (in 3D) if you are using a frame of reference attached to the rotating golfer . But I don't think Dr Kwon is using a moving frame of reference when he describes the FSP.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Warlock

[Warlock]

Now I understand what Phil means. His functional plane is tilted/pointed to the right and not on the target line, that's why it looks like there are 2  different slopes from a DTL view.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Warlock

[phillyk]

57 minutes ago, Warlock said:

Now I understand what Phil means. His functional plane is tilted/pointed to the right and not on the target line, that's why it looks like there are 2  different slopes from a DTL view.

Yes. There is a calculation to estimate FSP based on height (I have it written down somewhere), but generally you’ll determine it based on the actual swing.