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Posted
321853872_681355723492964_79077759615698

Golf Digest shared a post on Instagram: "Is Minjee Lee golf’s best iron player right now? 🔥". Follow their account to see 13637 posts.

So that you don't have to click it…

minjee.jpg

"Wow! Impressive!" you might say?

"Hogwash! Bullshit!" I might say.

Why? Like the comments on the Golf Digest article, and then the responses to those comments… am I just being sexist? Putting down the women's game because I'm a man?

No. Here's what I think is happening here.

f87ff52388474041993532b007128cae.jpg?wid

The popular statistic known as strokes gained is about to make its way to the LPGA Tour

Let's pull the important quote from there:

Quote

It won't be the equivalent of ShotLink on the PGA Tour, an elaborate and expensive program that began with lasers and now incorporates cameras on every hole to show the shape and distance of every shot by every player.

The LPGA program will rely on caddies capturing the data through a pre-formatted scorecard, which then will be processed and analyzed by KPMG. The women would have access to the popular “strokes gained” statistics off the tee, to the green and putting, along with shot dispersion and proximity to the hole from various distances.

So what do I think happened?

Let's imagine she hits the ball to 27 feet from 163. That's a good shot, and one that would rank roughly T54 on the PGA Tour. Let's then imagine that the caddie writes down 20 feet, which would put her first on the PGA Tour by three feet in 2022.

But what else would it do? It'd really hurt her SG:Putting stats, because from 20', she should average perhaps 1.88 putts, but because she's putting from 27', she'll average closer to 1.96 putts. Assuming she's an average putter, she'll lose 0.08 SG:P unfairly. 0.08 18 times is 1.44 strokes lost putting, which would be last on the LPGA Tour.

Where did she rank? 152nd out of 155, with -1.110 strokes gained (lost, in this case) per round.

So, yes, you can be first in SG:App… if you don't mind tanking your SG:P stats.


To be clear, I think Minjee is a wonderful irons player. Hitting it to even 27 feet from 163 is a great, great shot. I also don't think her caddie was doing this nefariously here — I think he was just bad at estimating distances on the putting green.

How confident am I in this? Confident enough to send out a three-tweet "thread" on it:

stackhousem_1325090870_2000x1125.jpg

The watchword in virtually all sports right now is “analytics.” The statistical breakthrough by Bill James in baseball decades ago now governs decisio...

P.S. Am I 100% certain that Minjee didn't average closer to the hole than every man from every distance? No, I'm not 100%. But I'd bet a LOT of money that she wasn't that good.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted

Definitely would make sense, particularly with the strokes gained putting being such a huge factor at more than a stroke lost each and every round. 

Self reported data is a terrible way to track these types of statistics, for exactly this reason. They’re only possible on the PGA Tour because of ShotLink, so trying it without such a system in place is a fool’s errand. 

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Posted

I like that they are working to add more stats and understand it is a cost issue but wish they had the same tech as the  PGA in which case there would be no debate, the facts would be what they are.

Unfortunately with any human making a judgement on distance you will get different margins of error and comparability will be lost.  That is the beauty of the advanced tech on the PGA.  Even between the different LPGA pros there will be errors that hurt comparability.

if is a start but hopefully not the final step in more advanced tracking on LPGA. 

Stuart M.
 

I am a "SCRATCH GOLFER".  I hit ball, Ball hits Tree, I scratch my head. 😜

Driver: Ping G410 Plus 10.5* +1* / 3 Hybrid: Cleveland HIBORE XLS / 4,5 & 6 Hybrids: Mizuno JP FLI-HI / Irons/Wedges 7-8-9-P-G: Mizuno JPX800 HD / Sand Wedge: Mizuno JPX 800 / Lob Wedge: Cleveland CBX 60* / Putter: Odyssey White Hot OG 7S / Balls: Srixon Soft / Beer: Labatt Blue (or anything nice & cold) 

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Posted
27 minutes ago, iacas said:
321853872_681355723492964_79077759615698

Golf Digest shared a post on Instagram: "Is Minjee Lee golf’s best iron player right now? 🔥". Follow their account to see 13637 posts.

So that you don't have to click it…

minjee.jpg

"Wow! Impressive!" you might say?

"Hogwash! Bullshit!" I might say.

Why? Like the comments on the Golf Digest article, and then the responses to those comments… am I just being sexist? Putting down the women's game because I'm a man?

No. Here's what I think is happening here.

f87ff52388474041993532b007128cae.jpg?wid

The popular statistic known as strokes gained is about to make its way to the LPGA Tour

Let's pull the important quote from there:

So what do I think happened?

Let's imagine she hits the ball to 27 feet from 163. That's a good shot, and one that would rank roughly T54 on the PGA Tour. Let's then imagine that the caddie writes down 20 feet, which would put her first on the PGA Tour by three feet in 2022.

But what else would it do? It'd really hurt her SG:Putting stats, because from 20', she should average perhaps 1.88 putts, but because she's putting from 27', she'll average closer to 1.96 putts. Assuming she's an average putter, she'll lose 0.08 SG:P unfairly. 0.08 18 times is 1.44 strokes lost putting, which would be last on the LPGA Tour.

Where did she rank? 152nd out of 155, with -1.110 strokes gained (lost, in this case) per round.

So, yes, you can be first in SG:App… if you don't mind tanking your SG:P stats.


To be clear, I think Minjee is a wonderful irons player. Hitting it to even 27 feet from 163 is a great, great shot. I also don't think her caddie was doing this nefariously here — I think he was just bad at estimating distances on the putting green.

How confident am I in this? Confident enough to send out a three-tweet "thread" on it:

stackhousem_1325090870_2000x1125.jpg

The watchword in virtually all sports right now is “analytics.” The statistical breakthrough by Bill James in baseball decades ago now governs decisio...

P.S. Am I 100% certain that Minjee didn't average closer to the hole than every man from every distance? No, I'm not 100%. But I'd bet a LOT of money that she wasn't that good.

I remember when the state I lived in made a law stating that nobody can smoke a cigarette within 15 feet of the entrance to a public building. At the time I told anyone that would listen to me that it was one of the dumbest laws ever. Why? Because how far is 15 feet? I did an informal experiment just with some folks at work and had them one at a time stand 15 feet, by their estimation, from a wall. Some were as close as 6 feet others stood at more than 25 feet (that was the length of the tape measure we had to make the measurements.) It was pretty much all over the place. 

So, the law is dumb because lets say a 25 foot estimating person comes along who hates smoking at the exact moment a 6 foot estimating person who happens to be a smoker is smoking outside the building. Pretty soon an argument ensues. They should have made the law 100 feet. Then even if you are way off at least you are likely to still be pretty far from the entrance to the building. 

Human beings without some specific training are very bad at measuring distances by eye. 

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My bag is an ever-changing combination of clubs. 

A mix I am forever tinkering with. 

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Posted

One thing to note is that I’m not trying to be insulting to the caddie in my earlier comment. 
 

I’ve paced off the vast majority of putts that weren’t a tap-in that I’ve hit over the past ten years or so, and I can also say with absolute certainty that 99% of those “measured” distances were an under-estimation. I know this because the steps I use when pacing off a putt are almost always a little longer than 3 feet apiece to be able to comfortably keep a consistent length to each step.
 

It doesn’t really matter because I’m not ever comparing the measurements using my step length to measurements made by other people’s step lengths. It would matter if I was using it for that, but I only use it for comparison against myself. Asking caddies and/or players to do the measurements without the help of a tool is like asking people how far you have to drive to get from one place to another without using a map, you’ll get good estimates from people who do it a lot but they’ll still all be a bit different because nobody can measure perfectly without the help of tools. 

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Note: This thread is 1094 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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