The Hogan Fade

[nlowplacez]

This is for anyone out there who knows a whole lot about Ben Hogan, preferably someone who has seen him swing.

I know Hogan played a fade when he was the ballstrking genius, and I know or at least hear that it was a push fade.

I'm just wandering if anyone knows (for certain) what his setup looked like to hit it. In five lessons there's that famous diagram of the feet position with the slightly closed stance for driver and opening as the clubs get more lofted. But I'm wandering if anyone on here can tell me how you hit an accurate push fade like that (you can't).

My assumption is that the target line in his diagram is not the ball to target line, rather Ben's personal target line which I'm assuming is somewhere left of the target. I'm figuring he didn't include that tidbit because the book is for amateurs who would benefit more from it being a ball to target line.

So basically, does anyone know how open his stance was. Was is slight or drastic like trevino's. If you know please reply, if you're guessing or speculating just make sure to include that. Thanks guys. By the way I'm kind of new to the forum, obviously. I'm Drew. cool to be on here. looking forward to getting to know you guys

[x-forged]

heres an iron, looks slightly open or directly at the target.


heres driver, and the closed stance like you said.

[nlowplacez]

see thats my point. i think you have to see it in person, or he may have been playing draws in one or both of those photos. In the first video, his feet are aimed just closed the camera line and the ball starts off on about the same line. So if it fades its going right of directly down the camera line. He's either playing wind playing a draw or the target is to the right of where the camera is pointing. Same type of thing in the second one. I can't really tell for sure from camera shots. I wish I could go back in time and watch him on the range for just a few minutes, or better yet on the course. Thx for the reply tho.

or very possibly what i've heard and read is wrong, and he played a normal cut fade and not a push fade. which seems more likely in those vidoes. I just heard it from so many diff sources i came to believe it was fact. who the hell knows. whatever it is i wish i could do it that well.

[x-forged]

yeah, i get what your saying. also take a look at the iron shot and notice how his shoulders are opened compared to where his feet are aligned..i could see this promoting a cut depending on his impact position.

what a beautiful swing.

[JaY_B]

Hogan should in theory hit a natural draw, as doesn't his theory advocate an in to out to in swing (an arc)

(not explained that very well, I'm sure anyone who knows Hogan's theory willl be able to tell me if I'm wrong or right.)

[iacas]

Hogan should in theory hit a natural draw, as doesn't his theory advocate an in to out to in swing (an arc)

In to out to in doesn't mean hook or slice (or draw or fade). If you hit the ball right in the middle of the two "in" parts, that's a straight shot. Hit it after that point and it's a fade. Hit it before and it's a draw.

That's all assuming the clubface is pointed the same direction (straight at that target, and right on that "middle" part I mentioned).

[lolzzlolzz]

Hogan's setup was the same as it says in the book in that diagram. I say this because he says it specifically that "That is why I make --and suggest you make-- a mild modification when you are playing the clubs from the six-iron down to the wedge."

His hips were always slightly turned to the left, because he pushed his right knee in (remember when he said the right knee is pointed in more than the left knee? This is why the hips turn to the left.)

As for his fade... my best guess is that he faded it because one of his "secrets" to good ball striking and fixing his hook was that he coiled and cocked his wrists from the start of the back swing, which caused his wrist to be fully cupped at the top of his back swing. I'm pretty confident on this guess, as I've tried it and it works.

Edit: Forgot to mention. A cupped wrist promotes a fade... the opposite of a cupped wrist (forgot the name) promotes a draw/hook.

A little off topic I guess... hogans other "secrets" were:

-left elbow pointed at the left hip just before contact... this squares the clubface.
-right knee pointed in throughout the back swing.
-his weakened Vardon grip (the elbow trick doesn't work unless you use Hogan's grip; all your shots will fly to the left if you use a "strong" grip)

Anyway sorry for slightly going off topic, but we are talking about Hogan anyways. Interesting stuff to me at least...

[lolzzlolzz]

New post for this if anyone's interested in Hogan's ball shaping abilities...

In The Secret of Hogan's Swing, when Hogan is training John, John asks Hogan about working the ball. Hogan said: "Life is too short to perfect one swing, let alone different swings to draw or fade the ball. We are creating a machine, your machine, where your hands are the chuck and the club is the tool. If you want to work the ball, turn the tool in the chuck. Never alter the mechanics of your machine to alter the direction of the shot."

So this is how Hogan shapes his shots:

Fade: turn stance slightly to the left, turn the club in the hands so it is facing the target
draw: opposite of fade, close stance slightly and close the club so it's facing the target.
low shot: put the ball in the back of the stance
High shot: put the ball up in the stance

For all these he used the same swing. Combining them, he was able to do whatever he wanted to the ball... low fade, high draw... etc.

I highly recommend this book as the story tells a lot about Ben Hogan and his golf swing. After reading it, it completely changed my understanding of 5 Lessons.

[t480]

Yea, I've figured it all out............what Hogan is doing; I'm not being surprised much anymore on the course.

The two video's you show on the post-- he is hitting draw shots. Hogan closed his stance for both the draw and the fade.

Nobody ever addresses Hogan’s ball/foot position in their "secret" analysis. you have a piece of it in your guess (take a closer look- he states the right foot is square to the line of flight-not the target), however, it is several layers deeper than that; more layers to the mathematical onion.

Once you understand what Hogan is doing you can actually attack the ball with many ball / foot positions with the exact same swing. Ball striking is one thing--weight shift--balance etc is another...but once you figure out how to make them all fit together with the proper set up and grip--the chain reaction takes care of the rest whether it be straight- fade- or draw.

That is why the diagram is at the end of the book ....the it is the starting point of discovery; every thing before it makes it insanely repeatable. Discovering it's different attacks and applications is up to you.

I didn't start golf until I was 35. I was the audience he was writing the book for. I am consistently shooting in the low 70's and I play from the back tees. I just happened to understand what he saying. I also feel what he wrote was exactly what he meant

The fade explanation below is how Nicklaus did it not Hogan. Hogan did it the exact opposite . Oh it was a chuck alright; the explanation is an assumption. What did Hogan actually say?? Two answers --and you can find it in his book.

[Brian Robinson]

Hello Drew

It is really about how much Mr Hogan wanted to fade it or turn it into a slice. He often said that each shot was different. So experiment with opening your stances different amounts. This was actually very important to Hogan. He was obesssed with shot making. I have studied his swing for 30 years and IMHO he did have a one set up and shot fits all mind set. Every set up was particular to the shot he need to make. Anyway here is me using his Power Golf Swing

[t480]

Yes, I hit it like that and it works.

hogan qualified the feet by referencing it to the line of flight. Not the target line. other than that there is a couple of chucks to adjust to the fundamental.......................

[jlcsr916]

I read that Jackie Burke  said that Hogan used xtra stiff shafts in all his clubs and that he setup and hit his driver on the neck.You can't hook the ball hitting it in the neck.So he could block out the left side of the golf course.

[saevel25]

What's interesting is, Hogan looks like his feet are closed, but his hips, waist and shoulders look square to his target line.