Laws of Ball Flight

[sevenfourate]

Exerts from the most credible sites i could find showing swing-path is primary and clubface is secondary.I suppose all these people live in cloud-cuckoo land too ?

An article on on the PGA of America site:

http://www.pga.com/improve/tips/tech...iott100504.cfm

Article from some US college Golf site:

http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/P...l_flights.html

Article from Orange county golf:

http://www.golflessonsorangecounty.c...88171/7591.htm

Article from Doctor Golf:

http://www.drgolf.org/new_page_4.htm

Article from Golf training stuff:

http://www.golftrainingstuff.com/gol...ight_laws.html

Article from egolf.com:

http://www.shop-safely.com/shops.asp...ng&pid;=GFOOTPR

Another by a PGA Director of golf:

http://www.privateclubs.com/archives.../golf_push.htm

[Ziophils]

I can't believe sevenfourate plays off scratch when he knows so little about what shapes the ball. Saying that though, I've seen a number of very good players who don't really understand what happens when they swing the golf club but just do it instinctively. For those of you who struggle hitting a draw, aim the clubface right of your target, not at it and not left of it.


Adding this to post:
Ball doesn't start square with the clubface (except for a pull, push or straight shot) it actually starts within about 1/6 of the difference between the clubface and the swing path. Yes yes I know that means it starts pretty much square to the clubface but not quite :P

[Guest]

I'm not sure I'm buying this model. Swing path is circular. There isn't anything "straight" about a swing path. It can be in-to out, in-to-in, or out-to-in.
Next the release of the hands is another separate "path" with the club face moving, revolving, rapidly from open to closed at impact. This movement in and of itself, during impact, will impart "hook spin" on the ball.

Assuming a single plane swing, in-to-in, a square club face would result in a draw. A slightly open club face, enough to counter act the hook spin, will produce a straight flight path.

At least this is how I see it.

[irfan]

its about where the club is heading at contact. look at divots, the can be pretty straight. if AT CONTACT the club is moving dead straight, then you have a straight path. of course it will move in a circle, but relative to the target line at contact it can certainly be straight couldnt it.

if the club goes in to in.. then at some point it has to reach a point where the tangent is parallel to the target line. contact at this precise point with a straight face and the ball will go dead straight. chance of that happening? pretty freaking slim. most straight shots we see are pull or pushes with bad alignment id imagine. wasnt it hogan that dead straight shot was a fluke?

[Calibur]

This has helped me understand my swing a lot. I know I have a outside in swing, but I almost never pulled it with my old irons (MacGregor JNP Cavity back perimeter weighted) I hit a fade or slice. I think this is because the irons are so forgiving? I'm not sure... With my new irons (R7 Draw) I was pulling the ball with a draw spin. I am not slicing at all. I have been able fix that now with a more square swing. I think. Does this sound right?

[bunkerputt]

  Ziophils said:

Ball doesn't start square with the clubface (except for a pull, push or straight shot) it actually starts within about 1/6 of the difference between the clubface and the swing path. Yes yes I know that means it starts pretty much square to the clubface but not quite :P

This is completely right for all balls with a COR<1 (which is all golf balls). Since the ball compresses against the clubface during the swing, while the ball is compressed, the PATH is contributing to the directional component of the golf ball. Figures range in the 15% range for the contribution of the path to the initial direction of the ball, so 1/6 (17%) seems reasonable. But these depend on the COR of the ball. With a COR approaching 1, the direction approaches 90* relative to the face angle. Regardless, iacas is right, face angle dominates path when determining direction. None of us are good enough to pick 15% out of a couple of degrees open or closed anyways, so using only face angle gives you a simplified way to approximate it and get imminently reasonable results.

[iacas]

  bunkerputt said:

This is completely right for all balls with a COR<1 (which is all golf balls). Since the ball compresses against the clubface during the swing, while the ball is compressed, the PATH is contributing to the directional component of the golf ball. Figures range in the 15% range for the contribution of the path to the initial direction of the ball, so 1/6 (17%) seems reasonable. But these depend on the COR of the ball. With a COR approaching 1, the direction approaches 90* relative to the face angle. Regardless, iacas is right, face angle dominates path when determining direction. None of us are good enough to pick 15% out of a couple of degrees open or closed anyways, so using only face angle gives you a simplified way to approximate it and get imminently reasonable results.

You're right that I'm right, but not because I agree with you. I agree with sevenfourate.

I'm making some assumptions here, so I'll list them:

1. Loft is under about thirty degrees.
2. Clubhead speed is high enough to compress the golf ball well (> 90 or 95 MPH with a driver).
3. Neither clubface angle nor swing path are grossly out of whack (< 15°).

In other words, for shots which meet those criteria, swing path is the primary determinant of the initial direction of the ball's flight. Where it curves to after that is a function of the face angle (relative to the club's path). That's why, to cut a 4-iron around a tree, you swing left of the tree but leave the clubface pointed at the target. The ball will start left (swing path) and fade back to the target (clubface angle). I used to believe it was the other way around - a long time ago. My ballstriking, my self-teaching, and so much more have improved since I realized that the above is correct, not the old way. The golf ball is not a pool ball. It's compressed and carried with the clubface.

[bunkerputt]

  iacas said:

The golf ball is not a pool ball. It's compressed and carried with the clubface.

I think there are two different discussions going on. One is regarding putting, where the speeds are lower (similar to pool ball speeds ;) and the compression is much less. In these situations, face angle dominates. As the club speed increases, so does the compression and the contribution of the path to the initial direction. In this context, the ball tends to start more along your path and curve to where the face is pointing.

[iacas]

  bunkerputt said:

I think there are two different discussions going on. One is regarding putting,

The word "putting" in your quoted text above was the first time the word "putt" appeared in this thread. Furthermore, this thread is called "ball flight" - so no, I don't think we're discussing putting at all.

Putting is not fast enough to really pull the ball offline much. It can, and it does a little teeny bit (just ask Dave Pelz), but how much varies of course by the length of the putt, the ball being used, the putter (and the material(s)), etc. If you want to discuss putter path and its effect on the ball's path, I'd suggest starting a new thread.

[bunkerputt]

I'm confused. What happened to the previous discussion on the first page of this thread? Or what is sevenfourate referring to when he says "cloud-cuckoo land too?".