Your opinon on an incident yesterday

[Grogger31]

The way I see it, the guy who's dragging the group down has a responsibility to his fellow competitors to NOT pull them down to his level, especially if one or more of them are in contention. I see this as just as much of an etiquette issue as helping to search for wayward balls.

+1

Stated perfectly

[golfchief]

Since this was a qualifying round and Gavin was not going to make the cut from the sound of his play he should have said he was going to WD and walked off the course instead he choose to keep playing and drag the rest of the guys down. Gavin was actually the person in the wrong here as he only entered for the hell of it anyway.

[NM Golf]

'Nuff said!

You quoted me as saying it was difficult to watch someone hack it around. It is! But you have to realize I would still be there helping them look for a ball. Everytime.

As far as the time issue it is also not outside the relm of better etiquette to say to the group, "Hey guys we are way out of position we need to pick up the pace a little." I have had to do that in competition many a time. Plus you were 2 holes behind. Someone should have said something well before it got to that point. You have to throw out honors and play ready golf until you are back in position. But, you cannot throw out etiquette completely. You still need to be helpful to your fellow competitors. Realize they are having a bad day, but noone wants to lose a bunch of balls. Some people on here say its his responsibilty to say don't help, but thats easy for them to say not being in the situation. Put in that situation after pumping $15 worth of Prov-1's and your hopes and dreams of playing well into the high rough, I would say most people might want a little help. Plus the other two guys were helping.

Since this was a qualifying round and Gavin was not going to make the cut from the sound of his play he should have said he was going to WD and walked off the course instead he choose to keep playing and drag the rest of the guys down. Gavin was actually the person in the wrong here as he only entered for the hell of it anyway.

I have never seen one player pull an entire group out of position. I have played with a lot of slow players in competition, and since tournament rounds tend to be sluggish at best I have always been able to drag the sloths around the course in the allotted time.

[Anand]

As far as the time issue it is also not outside the relm of better etiquette to say to the group, "Hey guys we are way out of position we need to pick up the pace a little."

I'm actually taking my lesson from this forum. There is a general split of opinion and, for the most part, the lower-handicaps on here suggest that I should have helped to look for his ball -- irrespective of whether it was the first or thirtieth time. I'm going to defer to their greater experience in both casual and competitive golf. Although it totally kills your rhythm after a while, I'm going to always help look in future.

Did you even bother to read my multi-quote post?

[NM Golf]

Did you even bother to read my multi-quote post?

Yes I did. The holier than thou was not really directed at you I apologize as it does seem that it was. I will fix it.

[iacas]

I'm still trying to figure out why a 20+ handicapper and a 12 handicapper were playing in a qualifying tournament for the club championship, which would take only 12 players. Is the club that devoid of good players that these guys even had a chance?

Y'all want to rag on this Gavin fellow for dragging down his group, but I question why a 12 handicapper (let alone Gavin) was playing, too. What were the handicaps of the other players in the group? In the qualifying round? How far out of the top 12 did the OP finish?

These are rhetorical questions. Please, nobody answer them - just venting a bit. I'd be rather miffed if I was playing in a gross tournament with a 12 handicap. I'd expect the competition to be a bit better, and I don't think a 12 playing in the tournament qualifier is much better than a 20 playing in it. Not much room to talk.

[Grogger31]

I'm still trying to figure out why a 20+ handicapper and a 12 handicapper were playing in a qualifying tournament for the club championship, which would take only 12 players. Is the club that devoid of good players that these guys even had a chance? Y'all want to rag on this Gavin fellow for dragging down his group, but I question why a 12 handicapper (let alone Gavin) was playing, too. What were the handicaps of the other players in the group? In the qualifying round? How far out of the top 12 did the OP finish? These are rhetorical questions. Please, nobody answer them - just venting a bit. I'd be rather miffed if I was playing in a gross tournament with a 12 handicap. I'd expect the competition to be a bit better, and I don't think a 12 playing in the tournament qualifier is much better than a 20 playing in it. Not much room to talk.

Earlier you were vehemently stating that these members should be trudging after every wild shot that Gavin hit. Has your opinion changed now that you realize that they are higher handicaps? I don't blame you if you feel that way (in fact, I agree), however you seem to be a "rules are rules" type of guy ... so really you should feel the same regardless of their handicap, no?

[Anand]

I'm still trying to figure out why a 20+ handicapper and a 12 handicapper were playing in a qualifying tournament for the club championship, which would take only 12 players. Is the club that devoid of good players that these guys even had a chance?

As your questions are mostly targeted at me, the OP, I choose to respond, not by answering them, but instead by reminding you that the world of amateur golf is bigger than your world in Erie, PA. Golf clubs, associations and other organisations around the world may do things differently from your little patch.

For the record, our Club Championship is open to anyone with an index of 8.0 or better. Those at 8.1 - 20.4 have the opportunity to qualify. I shot 82 (rating 74) and qualified well inside the top 12. You may be a decent player, but humility is something you should consider working on.

[iacas]

Earlier you were vehemently stating that these members should be trudging after every wild shot that Gavin hit. Has your opinion changed now that you realize that they are higher handicaps?

No, my opinion hasn't changed. OP should have helped look for his fellow competitor's golf balls, should have tried to keep his group on-pace, and Gavin shouldn't have whined about it after the fact. Heck, Gavin probably shouldn't even have entered.

As your questions are mostly targeted at me, the OP, I choose to respond, not by answering them, but instead by reminding you that the world of amateur golf is bigger than your world in Erie, PA. Golf clubs, associations and other organisations around the world may do things differently from your little patch.

I don't need reminded that the world of golf is larger than Erie, PA., and I remain surprised that a 20 (and even a 12, despite your qualifying "well inside the top 12") would even bother to attempt to qualify.

And all of that's got nothing to do with humility. Your club either has a very inclusive policy or doesn't have very many good players, or if neither of those are true it has a helluva big club championship field each year. I'm a 2.0 currently and I haven't got a shot at winning the club championship at either of my courses - under par wins it easily every year. Humility is not the issue, Anand, and your character hasn't been hit upon more than that which you've asked (and only then if you consider golf etiquette an extension of one's character), so I'd appreciate if the same courtesy would be extended to others. In the end, Gavin was wrong (probably for even trying to qualify) as well as getting snippy with you at the end, and you were wrong for not displaying etiquette at all times.

[NM Golf]

I'm still trying to figure out why a 20+ handicapper and a 12 handicapper were playing in a qualifying tournament for the club championship, which would take only 12 players. Is the club that devoid of good players that these guys even had a chance?

You know I was wondering the exact same thing. I just thought there was a second flight or something. At the risk of sounding like a snob I would be pissed if I was paired with a high handicap during the club championship. My club has a second and third flight in the club championship but only the winner of the Championship flight is crowned club champion. And noone above a 6.0 index is even allowed to tee it up in the championship flight. I am glad you asked that question.

[Grogger31]

No, my opinion hasn't changed. OP should have helped look for his fellow competitor's golf balls, should have tried to keep his group on-pace, and Gavin shouldn't have whined about it after the fact. Heck, Gavin probably shouldn't even have entered.

At the risk of sounding like a snob I would be pissed if I was paired with a high handicap during the club championship.

So given that you guys don't think any of that foursome should have played in the Championship, I'd assume you'd be pissed to be directly behind him while they are searching for 5 extra minutes for Gavin's ball on every hole? Is that a fair assumption?

[JerseyThursday]

When we finished up and shook hands on 18, Gavin looked at me and said, 'your etiquette stinks, quite frankly. you should have helped me look for my ball on 16.' It was a medal competition, meaning every hole had to be completed, or else it's a DQ. So he was pissed that he was DQ'd .. and took it out on me. Earlier in the round, I had helped him locate his ball on three occassions, which was conveniently forgotten, it seems.

I’m curious as to your reply when confronted by Gavin. He has a hell of a lot gall to confront anyone after placing the group in the position of being on the clock.

The unfortunate thing is you are both members and it will always be awkward when you run into each other in the clubhouse or on the course.

[chingali]

Having played in a LOT of club strokeplay events I'd have to say that there are a hell of a lot of "Gavins" out there. On average there'd have to be at least one player "Doing a Gav" every three or four groups. very very rarely do I see a group lose two holes, sometimes a group will lose one hole to the group in front but they'll catch it up somewhere along the line.

My point is, with a "Gavin" every three or four holes how do the unfortunate groups containing "the Gav" manage to keep up so well? My guess is that the other players in the group manage to drag his sorry arse along pretty well.

One last thing, rather than going on ahead and playing your shot in the hope that it'll speed up play wouldn't finding Gav's ball be a more effective way of keeping things moving?

[iacas]

So given that you guys don't think any of that foursome should have played in the Championship, I'd assume you'd be pissed to be directly behind him while they are searching for 5 extra minutes for Gavin's ball on every hole? Is that a fair assumption?

Not a fair assumption, no, and based on speculation anyway. Most clubs wouldn't put the low handicappers out after the high handicappers - they'd be in front, perhaps for this type of reason.

And let's not add hyperbole - every hole? The OP said "on three occasions" (other holes earlier in the round), making this only the fourth (and final) incident. If I had to look for a ball on every hole, it'd try my patience for sure, but I'd still help look for the ball, and this wasn't anywhere near as bad as that. And to answer your question: I wouldn't care if I had to stand around on tees and in fairways waiting for a group ahead of me. If anything, I might think "well there are some people it looks like I don't have to beat."

One last thing, rather than going on ahead and playing your shot in the hope that it'll speed up play wouldn't finding Gav's ball be a more effective way of keeping things moving?

Well put, and certainly a fresh point.

[Anand]

I’m curious as to your reply when confronted by Gavin. He has a hell of a lot gall to confront anyone after placing the group in the position of being on the clock.

I was, of course, taken aback a little. However, I smiled and said, "Sorry you feel that way, Gavin. I'll keep that in mind for next time." We ended up sharing a table during drinks after the round with a few others. It was pretty chilled out.

I actually came on the forum and described the incident to learn something, because I wasn't sure if I had done the right thing, and that I wanted to be better informed for the future. I appreciate all the constructive feedback, which I've taken on board. I'm not interested in an individual's opinion on whether or not I should play in *MY* Club's Championship Qualifier.

[Grogger31]

And to answer your question: I wouldn't care if I had to stand around on tees and in fairways waiting for a group ahead of me. If anything, I might think "well there are some people it looks like I don't have to beat."

I'll take you at your word on that. Speaking for myself, if I had to wait for 36 handicaps (to keep it relative to my higher handicap then yours), I'd be PISSED.

[iacas]

I'll take you at your word on that. Speaking for myself, if I had to wait for 36 handicaps (to keep it relative to my higher handicap then yours), I'd be PISSED.

It's just a matter of mindset. You can stand around and stew about having to wait, or just look around, enjoy the scenery, and do whatever. So long as you can get your mind back to golf when necessary, it's all good.

[Anand]

Yes I did. The holier than thou was not really directed at you I apologize as it does seem that it was. I will fix it.

No problem, mate