Men vs. Women

[dragonflyin]

So yesterday I got set-up with a threesome of ladies for 9-holes. Needless to say, I was initially dubious about the situation when the starter told me so (mostly because I wanted to play quick and fit in 18). But the short two hours experience really got me thinking about the tendencies of the sexes, as well as the inherent biases of the game towards men.

Disclaimer: As stated above, the spark that flamed up the below stream of consciousness is filled with generalization and assumption (intentionally). It's not meant to be offensive, but I rather would like feedback to see how others feel towards these issues.

1. With some experience teamed up with ladies during summer league, and years of experience golfing with men, it seems to be that we approach the game very differently. I'd have to say that women seems to manage the ups and downs on the course much better. The ladies yesterday took their 20 yard shots with stride, and were generally enjoying the game, no matter how poorly they played. Men in a similar situation would really get down even across different skill levels. Our mood seems to be dictated quite a bit by our performance, and in turn, vice versa.

2. Watching people hit balls on ranges for years made me realize that golf is physically catered towards men. The swing is really carried out by the hip/waist section, combined with the arms and shoulders. I don't think it's controversial to say that on average, men tend to be stronger in the hands and wrists than women. So even though women are probably more stable/strong in the waist region, the average player has a disadvantage to men in terms of taking advantage of this stored power and using their hands and wrists as catalysts to deliver power to the ball. That's not to say it's impossible or overly difficult, just a disadvantage.

3. Many golf courses are designed with the back tees in mind. Sand traps, water holes, rough, trees, and fairway layout are all carefully planned. Designers think through each shot of each hole. Often I notice awkwardness of position by decent female players throughout the course. Even if they hit a good shot, they're unfairly penalized by a bunker or turn in the fairway that were clearly designed to impede progress of someone playing from the regular (white/black) tees. I think this really only affects the best/most consistent of players, but still something worth noting.

I hope this brings up some engaging conversations, so let me know what you think!

[Alex1]

golf is physically catered towards men

Any sport that uses upper body strength, which is 90%+, favors men. Since men and women compete separately professionally, there's no reason to be concerned over possible minor disadvantages. If women have fun playing golf, that's all that matters.

[Fourputt]

So yesterday I got set-up with a threesome of ladies for 9-holes. Needless to say, I was initially dubious about the situation when the starter told me so (mostly because I wanted to play quick and fit in 18). But the short two hours experience really got me thinking about the tendencies of the sexes, as well as the inherent biases of the game towards men.

1. A friend and I played The Ranch course at Keystone resort in the mountains yesterday, and we were paired with 2 women. One was about our skill level, maybe a bit worse and she played the gold tees (2nd shortest of 4 tee sets) . The other one was an LPGA Pro from Florida, and she played the white tees with us. Both played well, but when they hit bad shots, they got just as upset as we did. In fact, they tended to be more demonstrative than we were when they messed up.

I've found that negative reactions to bad shots are more likely to be related to skill level and subsequent expectations than they are to any other factor. 2. Play with a woman pro (or other good female golfer) sometime and you'll change your mind on that. There is no doubt that I was longer than the lady pro that we played with, but she was deadly accurate, and not short by any means. I played my 3W or 4W off most tees while she used with her driver, and her ball usually ended up slightly longer off the tee than mine.... she was often 10-20 yards farther than me. 3. There is no reason why any golfer shouldn't play the tees that his skill level dictates. Most good courses set the tees so that the hazards are equally in play... the only difference being that the the shorter players should be using the shorter tees. If that isn't the case, then either the tees are not well spaced or the golfers are not playing from the set that reflects their ability.

[julie_m]

So yesterday I got set-up with a threesome of ladies for 9-holes. Needless to say, I was initially dubious about the situation when the starter told me so (mostly because I wanted to play quick and fit in 18). But the short two hours experience really got me thinking about the tendencies of the sexes, as well as the inherent biases of the game towards men.

Easily agree with number one. Women don't seem to have the tender egos that men do.

golf is physically catered towards men Any sport that uses upper body strength, which is 90%+, favors men. Since men and women compete separately professionally, there's no reason to be concerned over possible minor disadvantages. If women have fun playing golf, that's all that matters.

Number two is the most bogus thing I've heard in quite a while. If golf was SO upper body, how come golfers aren't super-built muscle men types? I used to think the upper body had a lot to do with it, til I realized how much is the lower body movement. Someone strong in the hips can more than compensate for slender wrists.

My BF and his father (who was never pro but played tour events)...I love them to death, but I'm sorry, they have two of the most lanky, slender, ladylike frames I know. My BF can't use his driver at the range because he hits it over the net. Now I'm a belly dancer, and I can open beer bottles with my navel (party trick), and granted I can't hit it out of the range's property, but a lot of women were never encouraged to golf for the years and years that men put into it. I took a class in high school for golf, and everyone assumes the girls take it for easy As and they get looked over. No one even corrected my grip. Like Josh said, "a PRO taught you that ugly swing you had? You were holding it in your palm!" LOL, sad but true. I'll throw anyone on the course with 5'6" Ochoa or Sorenstam, and watch how nicely that tap the ball and blow it off the tee. (I'm sorry, maybe this is too much of a reaction, but you went sticking your fingers in the wound.) I DO have fun playing golf. AND I'm getting BETTER. THAT'S all that matters! If I wanted to dink around and have fun, I'd bake cookies barefoot in my kitchen.

[Grogger31]

Now I'm a belly dancer, and I can open beer bottles with my navel

I started choking on my coffee thanks to this statement. An 8 handicap that belly dances? Any chance of me erasing your BF out of the picture? LOL

[julie_m]

I started choking on my coffee thanks to this statement. An 8 handicap that belly dances? Any chance of me erasing your BF out of the picture? LOL

HAHA, you're too kind. You can have some rep for that.

[DJYoshi]

i don't agree with #2 100%, but part of it CAN be true. it depends on the person.
and note a golf swing isn't from strength totally. it helps to have strength. it helps you get away with a lot of poor tendencies in your swing...

a golf swing is more about stability, weight transfer & flexibility.

a muscle bound 300 lbs guy who can probably squat 6 - 700 lbs might not be able to outhit someone that's 5'9 and a buck 168.

I say that with confidence b/c 5'9 168 is my build and often i'll outhit taller ppl that have more bulk than me....and they have an advantage of the ss that their frames can and should generate.

and i really want to see video of julie with the beer bottle removal. please!

[dragonflyin]

2. Play with a woman pro (or other good female golfer) sometime and you'll change your mind on that.

I completely agree with you when it regards to accomplished players of both sexes, obviously a fully developed swing is going to rely less and less on strength and body build.

[dave s]

My wife, a 2nd year player, has really only played with me. This being the case, I don't always like what I see, if you get my drift!

Reading your post, I agree with much of what you said about course design. Wife hits a bomb off the tee and it clears the fairway and rolls into a penalizing situation.

Wife of a good friend plays on a league locally. She's never broken 70 for nine holes. "And she actually LIKES golf?", I asked. Buddy says, yeah, but I don't understand how anybody could like golf if they had to swing that many times to finish a 9-hole round! She obviously plays for the social aspect, the walk in the park and being outdoors on a nice day.

So do I, but playing well is also a priority! As it is with my wife. She's already reading the card over a beer after a round stating the usual 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' crap that we guys talk.

I like it. Playing with the wife, that is. She's a pretty good golf bud!

dave

[dragonflyin]

I like it. Playing with the wife, that is. She's a pretty good golf bud!

I'm happy for you that your significant other plays golf... I'm trying to get my gf to play, but the learning curve is so steep with golf!

[Surefire]

Reading your post, I agree with much of what you said about course design. Wife hits a bomb off the tee and it clears the fairway and rolls into a penalizing situation.

Why dopesn't she just take less club?

Its not all about hitting it as far as you can with the driver off every tee.

[Lefty731PM]

2. Watching people hit balls on ranges for years made me realize that golf is physically catered towards men. The swing is really carried out by the hip/waist section, combined with the arms and shoulders. I don't think it's controversial to say that on average, men tend to be stronger in the hands and wrists than women. So even though women are probably more stable/strong in the waist region, the average player has a disadvantage to men in terms of taking advantage of this stored power and using their hands and wrists as catalysts to deliver power to the ball. That's not to say it's impossible or overly difficult, just a disadvantage.

I don't agree with this at all.

It relates to sound mechanics in the swing. Females who hit the ball god distances are not necessarily strong in the areas you note. They have excellent timing, and that is what generates power - efficiency and making the most of the power you are able to generate. People of either gender (who are relatively fit) but can't generate distance do not have efficient swings. They are not able to "store power" as you put it because they aren't putting the relevant parts of their bodies in the correct position to do so. It has nothing to do with gender. Many males play baseball or cricket or tenniswhatever when they're very young and have a natural feel for coiling and uncoiling the body and translate this to golf automatically. Females who didn't play these "swinging" sports at a young age do struggle if they pick the game up a little later in life. If you go to your range and observe an athletic 12 year old girl who has been coached hitting balls you'lll be amazed at how far she hits it and staggered by how easily she is able to do it. It will prove to you that many men are the ones who can't store power efficiently.

[ScottRempel]

My wife took up golf a few years ago and this year she started getting more serious about it...trust me, she cares when she doesn't hit a good shot

I used to get quite upset on the golf course, but I'm trying to do my best to stay somewhat cool...however, I think my wife has taken over my golf anger lol...she can mumble a lot of four letter words if things aren't going well.

That being said, I still somewhat agree with the first point. There are a lot of ladies around here that play in ladies league and such, and a good majority of them are just out there to have a good time and don't get worked up when they hit 5 20 yard shots in a row.

[dave s]

I'm happy for you that your significant other plays golf... I'm trying to get my gf to play, but the learning curve is so steep with golf!

Not to derail the thread, but teaching my wife was really easy. She's going to see a golf pro for lessons to deprogram all of the bad stuff she's learned from me.

We started really small, so she could continue to see successes which helped keep up her interest in learning. Took her out to a couple of courses with nice practice facilities and putted balls. When she couldn't make a 10 footer, we moved in until she could make putts. From there it was chipping. Taught her how to properly chip balls so that when she hit down on the ball, the ball flew in the air. Total revelation. She was awestruck by the results. It was then she knew she could learn, do and LIKE golf. The rest is history. She can bomb it off the tee and is proficient around the greens. This is why we're getting real lessons for her. The midrange game is a result of not having a good repeatable swing. I'm beyond my limit as a teacher for her. Pretty soon, I'll be saying, 'hey, get back here on the white tees!' Give your wife a shot and work with her on things where she can see some successes early on and chances are good, she'll really like the game. Good luck and keep me posted! dave

[907golfer12]

I agree with #2, just a disadvantage but it can be over come with enough work. But I don't want to play with Loren Ochoa, she can drive the ball 270+

[Octuple Bogey]

I do hate to say it but I usually feel kind of sorry for the women the muni course starters randomly tee me up with. I've played with a lot of different women, even a couple older female bodybuilders I knew, (and first class eccentrics), and they just don't seem to generate much distance at all. It is profound how much of a disadvantage they usually are at. I don't know why they just don't get discouraged and give up the game. I mean their husbands usually outdrive them by at least 100 yards on every hole and then tell them "great shot". What the hell does that mean? I wouldn't be sure what I'd tell them. I mean it almost seems contemptous for a guy to blow one 250 down the pipe and then compliment his wife on a 135 yard bunt with the driver down the middle that will never get her to any par four green in regulation even from the reds. But it also seems kind of discourteous not to say something if that is the best they can do. I just don't get it.

The other thing worth mentioning is that only men seem to show up alone and without a tee time to the course to play with random strangers. I do it all of the time. Only twice in my golfing life, (18 years of it and probably over a thousand rounds), do I recall ever seeing women do that and both were good players, one of them a collegiate golfer on an athletic scholarship. For the record she did beat me by a few strokes and was a good several strokes over par, mainly because my putting sucked next to hers. I had nothing over bogey, she had a triple and a double. You know there is a problem with women golfers when a hacker like myself, without ever taking out a wood, can almost beat one on a university golf scholarship.

[Surefire]

I do hate to say it but I usually feel kind of sorry for the women the muni course starters randomly tee me up with. I've played with a lot of different women, even a couple older female bodybuilders I knew, (and first class eccentrics), and they just don't seem to generate much distance at all. It is profound how much of a disadvantage they usually are at. I don't know why they just don't get discouraged and give up the game. I mean their husbands usually outdrive them by at least 100 yards on every hole and then tell them "great shot". What the hell does that mean? I wouldn't be sure what I'd tell them. I mean it almost seems contemptous for a guy to blow one 250 down the pipe and then compliment his wife on a 135 yard bunt with the driver down the middle that will never get her to any par four green in regulation even from the reds. But it also seems kind of discourteous not to say something if that is the best they can do. I just don't get it.

All you've mentioned so far is distance. Plenty of women, my Mrs included can hit it at least 200 yards.

Also maybe you play a different course from me but I've never seen the bit on the scorecard where you have to write in how far your tee shot went. Even if a woman can only hit it 135, if they're straight down the middle they'll be on most greens in 3 or 4 and probably pretty close. Meanwhile the guy blasts it 5 million yards off the tee, but not straight so is playing his 3rd off the tee anyway!

[907golfer12]

I do hate to say it but I usually feel kind of sorry for the women the muni course starters randomly tee me up with. I've played with a lot of different women, even a couple older female bodybuilders I knew, (and first class eccentrics), and they just don't seem to generate much distance at all. It is profound how much of a disadvantage they usually are at. I don't know why they just don't get discouraged and give up the game. I mean their husbands usually outdrive them by at least 100 yards on every hole and then tell them "great shot". What the hell does that mean? I wouldn't be sure what I'd tell them. I mean it almost seems contemptous for a guy to blow one 250 down the pipe and then compliment his wife on a 135 yard bunt with the driver down the middle that will never get her to any par four green in regulation even from the reds. But it also seems kind of discourteous not to say something if that is the best they can do. I just don't get it.

Dude that has to be one of the lowest things I have EVER read.

So what if a woman can only drive the ball 135? And her husband is complimenting her because she is hitting the ball forward and some where that she can find it. Maybe some people aren't out there to score really good, but to get exercise, have fun, enjoy the outdoors and weather and maybe spend time with the significant other. You don't need to hit greens in regulation, you just need to have fun. Just the other day I played with 3 elderly women who were just like this, hit the ball MAYBE 100 yards, but they were out there to have fun and spend time with each other. On the 2nd green one of the lady's asked me to come over to her. I did and she asked me to help her read the putt, and I did. She stroked the putt and guess what? It went in. She was VERY happy since it was he second par ever, and you know what else? I felt very good because I helped someone have more fun playing. Everytime they hit the ball down the fairway or on the green I said "nice shot!" Because they just wanted to move the ball forward, at one point after getting a 6 on a par 4 one lady said that she was plying better. And you know what? One of the ladies shot a 39, only hitting it 135 yards. And I want you to play with my swing coaches daughter and then tell me that women's college golf is not good. She is a 1.3 handicap index and drives the ball over 270 yards. I enjoy playing with her since we have fun and it is challenging for me to try and beat her. Dude you need to learn that golf is a game of having fun and enjoying other peoples company, not hitting the ball over 200 yards, and shooting under par.