lateral slide - swing video

[thumper07]

Thanks for all the advise guys, i'm still working away at it when i can even if its cold outside. Somebody said something about down the line videos so here are some from this past week.

If i had to explain what i feel during my swing to better help someone else is to just keep your hands in front of your chest and keep the club head above your hands. Do this and rotate around your spine and not a whole lot can go wrong. thats just what i feel and i tell myself during a round so i dont get to complicated. one of the biggest things i have learned working on my swing, something that i think most people dont realize is that you cant just change one part of your swing, you make one change then something else will be different because of that change, i guarentee it. So pay attention to what you are working on and what else could affect it. As far as fitness goes i have lost about 20lbs over the last 3 months while exercizing regularly. I think this is imperitive to making a good golf swing. Obvioulsy this isn't true though look at mark calcavechia and tim herron, but i think its important and makes life alot easier. Golf Digest this month have a workout regimen in it to build golf muscles, i am going to start using this this week.

Anyway here are the videos



here's a video from early 08 of how fat i was and how my swing has changed

[RC]

Wow, I am impressed -- for two reasons.

Congrats for the weight loss, a healthier life and better golf lie ahead. I know it is hard to lose weight because I too dropped 20 pounds, but I got maybe 10 more yards from working out and stretching as well. So, way to go. The second congrats is for your swing. It is hard to make swing changes just like it is hard to lose weight. I can see your swing change and it is exactly what you say you are working on. My guess is you now have a better and more penetrating ball flight and you don't push or pull shots as often. You have a good looking swing in my inexpert opinion. We all lose it from time to time, but understanding your swing is the key to getting back on track quickly.

One little note on the driver swing. It looks good so if this does not work, then don't do it. Anyway, try a very slight modification. As the club goes back try to continue to hold your good posture while pushing the club back just a little more (making sure to keep your right knee flexed.) It will feel like the club head is slightly further away from you and a little more outside the hands at 3:00 O'clock. Parallel is good (the gold standard,) but a few find having the club shaft point ever so slightly to the left of your target line when you get to waist high as a way to ge a little more width and power. This is more of a risky move, but if you can do it, the extra width can get you a few more yards (but it does not look like you need extra distance -- Oops, that's not right... we all want extra yards.)

Regards and good luck. Don't trust anything on the internet -- we may all be kooks.

[RC]

I take it back.... After watching your driver swing in super slo mo (i.e. frame by frame,) you already are getting great width, and the clubhead is already doing what I suggested. Watching at normal speed, I did not catch the first foot or two of your take-away, and got a wrong impression. You must be pounding it. At 3 O'clock your shaft does point slightly to the right of the line but that could be the camera angle -- I don't know your target. I like my club to be just a hint of pointing left of the target at this position, but as some famous teacher once said, when you are within the range of good variations it does not matter. I do think there is another few yards of distance in the right leg, if it could stay a hint more flexed -- but don't let that change if it messes up your swing. Think about where that right knee and leg would be if you were a shortstop throwing 3/4 underhand to first.

Some do not like any crossing at the top, but you are essentially on plane and not regripping or over swinging in my opinion so it looks good to me. Some young guns are starting to set at the top in what we used to think was a laid off position, but they are also doing little compensations later to remain within a good range of acceptable motions.

A final finishing touch would be for your right foot to finish the swing on the toe, straight up. When the heel of the right foot leans slightly over to the right (from behind) you may have had a little tension somewhere that might show up time as a spin out or slight balance loss. Hit the big drive and hold your finish for a count of three and it will tell you whether this is a real or imagined thing on my part.

Again... opinions are cheap here -- free.

[AwYea]

You make a good move through the ball. I was intrested in seeing your newest videos when you mentioned shanking. I thought you may be laying the club off but you look good.

The best drill out there for learnning to keep your head still is to get someone to stand in front of you, opposite the ball, and let them put their hand on the top of your head while you swing. This will allow you to feel just how much you're moving your head. You can do this drill with or without hitting balls.

Like others have said it looks like you straighten your right knee on the backswing which will make your sway your hips instead of turnning them. I think you just need to tinker with your set-up a little till you're able to swing while keeping a little flex in your right knee. This alone ought to reduce most of your head movement.

[thumper07]

thats funny you mention holding the head while you swing, beings as how i dont live with anyone but my wife and my friends wont go to the range with me cause its too cold, my wife holds my head while i swing in the living room. only during commercials though!

-matt

[RC]

Personally, I think the head makes a little move anyway. Even Nicklaus moved his head a bit (I know the stories about his mentor holding his hair but pictures with background trees clearly show he moved a bit,) and Tiger's head moves as well. I'm not talking about rotating, I am talking about moving to the right side. You don't want a big bobbing up and down head, but as you load the right side, the head moves slightly as the shoulders turn and the sternum moves almost over the right knee (if the knee is cocked in and supporting your weight on the inside of your right foot.) Some swings have a fixed head position, but many power swings have this head move -- but you have to have some good reference points to spot it.

Here at Sand Trap in a post from darthfader I think, there was a link to two pictures that showed Tiger from directly above his body... at setup and at the top of his swing -- looking straight down at the top of his head. You can use his immobile feet to clearly see the head moves a little right as he sets the club (which is in front of his chest by the way.) I've watched him do it. Seeing the pictures just reminded me that what I saw on the range using a club as a plumb-bob was exactly what the photos showed. A perfectly still head is fine, but many wonderful swings do not have immobile heads.

[Armonster20]

thumper - your swing is looking good to me! It looks like you carry a ton of momentum through the ball. I'm jealous.

RC and darthfader - another set of questions for you

I went out today and kept trying the drill. I started out with some 25-45yd pitching and focused on making solid contact while resisting the hip turn. I had to conciously think about hitting down on the ball, and I remembered you guys mentioning something about having to hit down a little more when rotating rather than sliding.

So then I head over to hit some full shots, focusing on resisting hip turn and keeping my hands in front of my chest. I think my old habit was to collapse the left arm across the chest, so this new method resulted in a little steeper backswing. I rotated rather than slid, and swung with my regular downswing. It resulted in low trajectory hooks (hooking about 30yds with an 8 iron). I was confused because it felt like I was coming over the top, but it was resulting in hooks rather than my almost unavoidable slice (until now).

Thinking back to the short game, I started experimenting with altering my downswing and hitting down on the ball a little more. With my old swing, the slide itself seemed to get the clubhead down to the ground. This rotating thing felt like it needed a councious hand drop to get down to it (even with a tee). Based on the timing of when I dropped my hands toward the ball, I got different feeling downswings. I'm wondering if any of them are correct.

1) normal downswing - this one felt like I was swinging at the ball from the top of my backswing, and gave me that over the top feeling that somehow resulted in low, big hooks. I got a few divots that went slightly to the left.

2) dropping hands at the top of the backswing - this felt like I was changing the swing plane a lot right before the downswing started by dropping the hands. I hit the ball much higher, and with a little less hooking (but still 10-20yds)

3) something in between 1 and 2, with results that were also in between

So what's the deal with the downswing? How does the downswing change between a slider and a turner? Looking at everyone's swing videos, I'm not seeing a big drop at the top. So I'm worried maybe I'm going down the wrong path here.

[RC]

Watch great swing videos and don't focus on doing specific things with your hands. From the top, just drive the turning body through while swinging the club down on that wonderful plane you see in the pro's swing. 9 times out of 10 if you are having trouble doing that it is because you bring the club inside too quickly. Let the shoulder turn take the club away -- low and back, then turn the shoulders to the top. Watch the Tiger video... most guys would think he takes the club back outside, but he is just avoiding getting it inside and trapped. The club comes inside, just not as soon as the hands -- as it should be. What you don't want is a clubhead that gets behind you and falls below the or behind the hands (if during your back swing the handle and shaft is pointing well right of your target at 3 o'clock, you are too far inside.)

The thing about hitting thin or topping at first is only because upper body handsie players are typically coming over the top and chopping down on the ball. The rotatary swing does not have that feature and takes a while to get used to. With an iron, you still hit slightly down on the ball, you still have the hands slightly ahead of the ball. If your grip is not too strong, you should hit it perfectly straight.

I worry sometimes about talking about the modern swing because unless you are seeing it in person, the words and ideas may be translated incorrectly. I sure do not want to steer you off course with words. Do the 3/4 ball throwing drill and maintain the spine angle... you will eventually get down to the ball and as long as you adjust the grip so the body squaring swing is hitting it straight, you'll be there. Make sure you can hit a short little teed up eight iron straight, then work it down to the ground. If you are striking the ball with the lower body opening up ahead of impact, it is hard to pull the ball left unless you are flipping the hands. From your description of your full swings, my guess is you are still doing the downswing with the hands and arms leading. That would pull hook the ball for sure.
Hope it works for you.

[darthfader]

What you don't want is a clubhead that gets behind you and falls below the or behind the hands...

I'm in total agreement here. In fact, when my slide started going away (mainly due to stronger legs, better posture, more flexibility), I started hitting lots of shanks and ENORMOUS hooks. As in, almost "trick-shot" hooks. I could hook a ball 50 yards with a 7-iron. It was awful. Not to mention the shanks. [sigh]

In order to hit a big hook, the club MUST approach the ball WAY from the inside. When I say "hook", I mean a ball that starts WAY far right, and curves back to the target line. A pull-hook is similar, except that at impact the face is also slightly shut. As RC stated, it is hard to describe these ideas in text. So I try to be careful giving advice that could be destructive. I'm not a teaching pro. The only thing I can do well is describe my experience as a "slider". Hopefully some of it pertains to you, and it puts you on the right path. :) That being said..... Thumper.. looks great, man. You have so much speed its ridiculous. :) Mighty fine job on the fitness too... better golf is just one of the benefits to getting in better shape. I can't really see any slide from that down-the-line view, but it is clear that you are REALLY trying to keep the head still. Maybe TOO still. Take the club back a foot or so, then feel like you gradually ease more into that right leg. If your upper body feels like it tilts slightly away from the target at the top, even better. Gotta keep that right knee flexed. Also... your swing looks NIGHT AND DAY better than before. Setup looks good, plane looks better. I can see your left arm folding across your chest on the way down... you're probably already working on fixing that. :) Awesome job. Armonster, you're at the beginning of the road. First, the backswing will feel strange. Then your feet might feel like they are "gripping" the ground more, rather than pushing off of it. Sometimes you'll wonder, "Why is everything going left?", or "Why is everything thin?" Just try to do one thing at a time. 1. It has taken me about 18 months, and I'm still not coiling into my right leg 100% of the time. Hopefully you will conquer this move much sooner. 2. Resist the tendency to do anything with the hands except A) holding onto the club and B) rotating the right forearm over left one (during the release) 3. Us sliders tend to get "stuck" almost all the time. What I mean is, we release the club early into a "crowded" position (arms close to the body), while we SLIDE towards the target, arriving at impact somehow. You may be taking the slide out of the equation, but you may have trained your arms to repeat this "stuck" or "crowded" position anyway. Hence the previous advice about getting the club "unstuck" (out in front of you). However, I quoted RC above regarding the grip, and you should also be wary. In my case, my years of sliding had taught me that I needed a VERY strong grip, or else my ball would go dead right. When I started unraveling my swing many moons ago, the grip was one of the things that was hardest to change. If you really are able to get the club more "in front" of you, AND you haven't compensated by weakening the grip sufficiently, the ball WILL go dead left. 4. Also something worth mentioning... I work on getting my arms away from my body A LOT. But I also know (from video), that my elbows got much too far apart during the downswing. Now I try to manage this by visualizing my elbows very close during the downswing/release. If you're really trying to maintain that address "triangle" and keep your arms in front... pay attention to the elbows. Summary: Grip: maybe too strong? Elbows: too much space? Coil: right knee flexed, weight loaded up over right leg? Keep at it. Post some video if you ever get the chance.

[Armonster20]

From your description of your full swings, my guess is you are still doing the downswing with the hands and arms leading. That would pull hook the ball for sure.

I think you got me right here. While I think I was able to get a full "coil," I might have been uncoiling with the arms rather than shooting the hips around and letting the arms follow.

Thanks again for the help guys, I'll try to post a video if it ever stops raining here (and if I can bribe my g/f to go to the range)

[thumper07]

heres an update from today, i think i got my upper body under better control but i still need to work on pulling the left hip to the left more and not toward the target as you will see in the videos.

[thumper07]

i think i've made good progress through the winter but something i still need to work on thats bugging me is holding onto my lag through impact. here are some down the line vids just to complete the picture

[darthfader]

First of all thumper, the swing looks great!! I'm sure there were countless hours involved over the winter trying to change things, break bad habits, etc.. It's hard to find a lot of faults here. You mentioned something about maintaining lag, so I figured you might get something out of this: (see attached)

Top two photos are you, as the hands are dropping to waist level. (I drew yellow lines to represent the shaft angle.) The bottom left photo is me (hard to criticize you if I don't allow myself to be judged). Bottom right photo is a successful PGA Tour player (multiple winner), name is unimportant.

Point is, something is preventing you from retaining your angle. Golfers who slide tend to also flip/cast the club, and it appears you've got a bit of that going on. Other things worth mentioning: Ball position with the driver looks good, but not so much with your short iron. I drew the red line so you could see how far ahead of the ball your body is getting.

So now you're saying, "Thanks for nothing Darth! I thought I was making good progress?!?! Now you're just nitpicking at my swing!"

Sorry if it sounds like that. Honestly, you're swing is getting better and getting better QUICKLY. You should be proud. You're probably hitting the ball better, straighter, farther..... and the ball doesn't lie. So I'll give some advice, based on my experience. Take it or leave it. Keep in mind, I've fought many of these same battles.

1. Ball position, ball position, ball position. You've got a repeating swing, but the ball position looks too far back with your short iron. Don't get into that bad habit. Too far back, and you'll start compensating by releasing early.
2. You swing really hard with that iron. Practice slowing things down to 50% speed. Your body needs time to adjust to a new impact position. Try punching a low 9-iron 100 yds. It requires soft hands and an easy tempo.
3. The pros maintain lag because their hands are relatively soft (light grip pressure), but their ARMS/SHOULDERS rotate at a constant speed. The weight of the clubhead simply causes the "lag". Keep that in mind.
4. Take a few swings where you feel as if your weight stays on your right leg longer, almost like you are trying to swing "off the back foot." I'm pretty sure that if you can keep yourself "behind the ball" better, maybe relax the grip a little, the lag will happen. I know it did for me.

Good stuff! What is your clubhead/ball speed with the driver? Looks like you're hitting them out of the county! :)

[thumper07]

So now you're saying, "Thanks for nothing Darth! I thought I was making good progress?!?! Now you're just nitpicking at my swing!"

absolutely not! i take any advice i can get and im not going to get better without working all the kinks out,and i was actually thinking the same things. i think if i can create better hip action and stay behind the ball the lag and impact position will get better on their own. an old man at the range told me that impact position cant be fixed by woking on impact position, it is the result of a good swing. so i think my next undertaking is going to be controlling my hips. When i get so far out in front its no wonder i release early its the only choice i have or i would miss the ball all together. that tells me i have excellent hand - eye coordination, which as stupid as it sounds gives me confidence moving foward. thanks for your help.

BTW- ss105-107 bs155ish this will come up if i can control the speed better and not prematurly ejactulate it like i am now -matt

[leezer99]

I had a slide like that for a while. Couple of things helped me out... come up with a swing tempo that has a four count to slow your swing down... two back and two through the ball. Check your grip pressure... any swing that quick is undoubtedly going to cause you to hang on for dear life.


In my bag:
Driver: Titleist 907 D2
Fairway: Titleist 905F2 18.5*
Irons: Mizuno MP-60
Wedges: Vokey SM 50* / 54* / 58* / 62*
Putter: Yes - Callie
Ball: Nike One Black

[darthfader]

i think if i can create better hip action ...i think my next undertaking is going to be controlling my hips. ...ss105-107 bs155ish

LOL. I used to think the same thing!!! You're on the right track!

Review the attached image. I'll refer to this image by "columns" and "rows". Column 1 is you, Column 2 is me, Column 3 is Mr. PGA Tour Guy ("PTG") teeing off on #7 at Augusta. Row 1 is setup, Row 2 is the top of the backswing, Row 3 is hands at waist-high coming down, Row 4 is impact. I've drawn four lines for each of us: a couple to show the head position, one to show the posture (down the rear), and another to show the flex in the right leg. 1. Row 1 - you and PTG look fine. I'm a little "squatty". I've been fighting that for years... 2. Row 2 - your right leg is collapsing a bit, I'm doing a little better, and PTG is pretty solid. I've lost a bit of posture, and I'm WAY across the line at the top (has gotten better recently). You and PTG are looking on-plane. 3. Row 3 - PTG is really staying behind the ball and uncoiling fast, hence the huge lag. Also notice that his head has dipped noticeably since address. From what I've heard, PTG has a tendency to hang back TOO much on the right side and get too far "underneath". Still a good example for us though. Me... I've started sliding, as you can see by my hips (not rotating), and my right heel WAY off the ground. Now I'll need to flip with the hands since the body isn't rotating fast enough. You, well... lower body is in pretty good shape, posture is pretty good, but you've casted the club into this position, so your upper body needs to lift up to make some room for impact. Your right heel also tells me that you are probably "pushing off" a little with the right side, instead of letting the hips just unwind. 4. Row 4 - Your impact position is quite a bit better than mine, but you lost a lot of power due to the casting. That equates to your swing/ball speeds being roughly 106/155, and mine (when this video was taken) is roughly 109/160. Not a huge difference, but you can see what the casting costs you. PTG is solid (hitting a fade), probably around 114/168. Keep the legs quiet, rotate the arms/torso with your weight a little farther right than feels comfortable, relax the hands. Take it slow, let it happen.

[thumper07]

looks good, i wish i had access to swing analysis software, i usually stick post-it notes to my screen. I cut the sticky part into slivers, hey whatever works right. well every saturday morning i work at the range for atleast 3 hours now i will have tuesday nights availible too since the days are getting longer. so i'll get more time to work. i'm actually going to this year spend alot more time on the range and putting green and less time on the course. on the course is no place to learn, not enough strokes especially when only 40 or so are full swings.

but believe it or not as much as i am working on fundementals i am very much a feel golfer. even when i go to the range i need to have rythem to my practice. i need to feel what it is like to have my hands and club head pass through in front of my body through impact and not have my hips race out in front. but i'll work on it and thanks again for all the help.

-matt

[JonnyGolf]

I totally agree with the below. So, think about more rotation and less sliding, but you already do a great job posting up back over your left leg.

Not bad at all... great separation going back on the driver. The only thing I see is your right leg gets a little straight and this causes your entire body to move right. Personally, I like to see the reverse K shape on the right side and yours is almost a straight line, which might mean your weight could get stuck or that you revert to sliding to get off the right side. That produces pushes and hooks respectively a lot of the time. But hey, not everyone touts that position. If you keep flex in your right leg and knee, the lower body will not shift much to the right. A key thing to check is if you feel the weight on the inside of the right foot even though you have turned your shoulders behind the ball -- does that make sense? Another thing... the straight right side is a hint of your old reverse pivot issue (you mentioned this old problem.) There are lots of golfers that would like a swing as solid as yours, but with a little adjustment your swing would really look great to those of us that like the ground up body swing.