Spin

[st0wgolf08]

What creates spin? When I think about it, the ball travels up the club face and slides off creating backspin, grooves would provide resistance and bigger grooves would provide more, so how do grooves affect spin? From what i see, I think they limit spin. I think the roughness of the face matters more than the grooves do.

[imtomtomim]

grooves are supposed to give grass and dirt and junk some room to go when striking the ball. Ever notice how grass sticks to your club when you hit out of the rough? Those grooves are supposed to let some crap get squeezed through so more of the clubface makes contact with the ball instead of sliding up a big patch of grass. Some grooves are also deep enough to bite into the ball, providing complete static friction between the club and the ball allowing for that club to spin that ball.

I feel like you've got the wrong picture on spin. when you strike the ball, the bottom is getting shoved towards the target while the top has no direct contact made upon it forcing the bottom to move at a higher rate. a ball being a ball is gonna start turning, witht he bottom headed towards the target, and the top rotating back at you.

You know what, the more and more I think about it, your logic makes no sense at all. grooves DO make the clubface surface more rough. If I just glued some gravel to my wedge, there would be gapes and crevaces much deeper than the standard groove but would help me to impart a lot of spin because why? it grabs the ball. final point, grooves grab the ball's edge.

[TinCupTampa]

I cant spell out the physics behind it... but groove volume has something to do with the amount of spin a club imparts on the ball. Why else would they be bringing clubs back to the V grooves instead of leaving them with square grooves. Obviously the square grooves have more volume and create more spin. The face of the wedge is far less important than the grooves.

[TinCupTampa]

The latest research suggests that all facets of groove design were considered during the investigation, which involved the testing of 70 different face and groove configurations. The report concludes that decreasing groove spacing, increasing groove depth and width, and decreasing the edge radius of each groove all increase the spin potential. The edge radius has to do with the relative sharpness of the top of the groove, or the groove's relative squareness.

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2758899

[st0wgolf08]

grooves are supposed to give grass and dirt and junk some room to go when striking the ball. Ever notice how grass sticks to your club when you hit out of the rough? Those grooves are supposed to let some crap get squeezed through so more of the clubface makes contact with the ball instead of sliding up a big patch of grass. Some grooves are also deep enough to bite into the ball, providing complete static friction between the club and the ball allowing for that club to spin that ball.

My logic makes no sense? You have to picture it how I am thinking. So the wedge hits the ball, the ball rolls up the face and into the air, the ball is compressing all the time, and compressing into the grooves, hence the shredding, I picture the max amount of spin being the ball spinning off the top side of the club at max velocity, getting the most backspin. No one else sees this?

With the smoothness thing, again less friction so the ball can roll off the top of the club, making backspin.

[Jcp907]

My logic makes no sense? You have to picture it how I am thinking. So the wedge hits the ball, the ball rolls up the face and into the air, the ball is compressing all the time, and compressing into the grooves, hence the shredding, I picture the max amount of spin being the ball spinning off the top side of the club at max velocity, getting the most backspin. No one else sees this?

If I am understanding your point, the key is in this last sentence and is less friction. With less friction, there will be less spin, the ball will slide as opposed to gripping, and spinning. The grooves allow more surface area for the ball to contact the club, as well as offer a "cog" (like two gears meshing together) to grab onto as the ball cover compresses into the groove of the club. If the club were smooth, it would have less surface area, with less friction, and less spin. If it slid up and off the top of club, you would end up with a flop shot with less distance.

[st0wgolf08]

If I am understanding your point, the key is in this last sentence and is less friction. With less friction, there will be less spin, the ball will slide as opposed to gripping, and spinning. The grooves allow more surface area for the ball to contact the club, as well as offer a "cog" (like two gears meshing together) to grab onto as the ball cover compresses into the groove of the club. If the club were smooth, it would have less surface area, with less friction, and less spin. If it slid up and off the top of club, you would end up with a flop shot with less distance.

I don't get how less friction equals more spin. it's not like the ball is in mid air, and the wedge is going straight down the back side of the ball. That would make sense, but it's not the case, i'll make a drawing of what I think then paste it.

[Jcp907]

I don't get how less friction equals more spin. it's not like the ball is in mid air, and the wedge is going straight down the back side of the ball. That would make sense, but it's not the case, i'll make a drawing of what I think then paste it.

Less friction=Less spin

[st0wgolf08]

Less friction=Less spin

That's your opinion. You've yet to prove it. I could say I carry it 500, but thats silly as there's no i could prove or do that.

[JimmyDoesGolf]

The latest research suggests that all facets of groove design were considered during the investigation, which involved the testing of 70 different face and groove configurations. The report concludes that decreasing groove spacing, increasing groove depth and width, and decreasing the edge radius of each groove all increase the spin potential. The edge radius has to do with the relative sharpness of the top of the groove, or the groove's relative squareness.

Less friction=Less spin

I'm sure you can't dispute the fact that having grooves increases friction between the club and the ball. This combined with the first post I quoted should be enough to prove to you that grooves create spin.

On a more obvious level, if grooves reduced spin then why do some drivers have no grooves whilst wedges have deeper ones.

[Jcp907]

What do you need to see to accept this as a fact?

[Jcp907]

I'm sure you can't dispute the fact that having grooves increases friction between the club and the ball. This combined with the first post I quoted should be enough to prove to you that grooves create spin.

Jimmy,

I am saying that grooves increase spin, not decrease it. The grooves increase the surface area of the ball that contacts the club because the surface of the ball deforms into those grooves. With fewer grooves, or grooves that are not as deep, the surface area is reduced, causing less friction, and less spin.

[JimmyDoesGolf]

I agree entirely. My post was directed at st0wgolf08. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

[denver_nuggs_15]

I'm pretty sure groove volume has very little to do with spin imparted on the ball (if it's in the fairway.) The ball only makes contact with the grooves on first 25000th to 15000th of an inch. Therefore, a groove's edge sharpness affects spin, not volume. I forget where I read this. Larger volume grooves may not help much with sping on a clean lie.

Spin will be created regardless of if the face is or is not grooved. The dimples of a ball cause spin and lift on a golf ball. If you look up Bernoulli's Principle, you would get it. Just think of how airplane wings work. But basically the higher loft of a club, the more spin the ball will have.

Grooves help if your ball is in the rough or fringe. The grooves will channel some debris away so the face makes better contact with the ball. It is similar to a tire tread. Treadless tires work great on a perfectly clean and dry surface, but other than that they are useless. This is where groove volume comes into play. The larger the volume, the more debris that can be channeled, and therefore the more face to ball and face to edge of groove contact there is.

[imtomtomim]

My logic makes no sense? You have to picture it how I am thinking. So the wedge hits the ball, the ball rolls up the face and into the air, the ball is compressing all the time, and compressing into the grooves, hence the shredding, I picture the max amount of spin being the ball spinning off the top side of the club at max velocity, getting the most backspin. No one else sees this?

alright, your picture is good, except for that last part. With the grooves, the ball grabs. at that moment, the ball is connected to the club and as the club passes through, it transfers it's momentum to the rotation of the ball. yes? yes. since the ball is connected to the club, 0 momentum is lost and all of it is transfered into the ball, making it rotate.

now, let's take a club with no grooves, imagine it sliding up the club, not rolling. If friction is missing, the ball will not stick to the face of the club as it passes by and will not roll up the clubface. how much momentum is preserved through this? well, a whole lot less than if the ball did grab the club. so here: grooves = friction = ball rolling up club = spin no grooves = no friction = ball SLIDING up club = no spin here's an experiment/demonstration you can try. take a pair of dice, and a piece of cardboard. Put some sandpaper one half the cardboard, and I don't know, grease up the other side, so you have one side with lots of friction, one side with little friction. put one di on each surface and tilt the board until they start to fall down the surface. what happens to the one on the smooth, frictionless surface? slides down eh? What happens to the one on sandpaper, it tumbles down right? that tumbling, translated into golf is what we call spin. Friction encourages spin. and frankly, you cannot take a repeatable fact and say that it's not true. we are not the edinburgh school of science where you say less friction imparts more spin because you think so. these are repeatable facts with repeatable results. quit putting down everyone's answers and learn something.

[st0wgolf08]

I'm pretty sure groove

I completely agree, as golf digest did a test and a wedge from 1970 performed the same from the fairway as a new vokey did.

[wedge player]

What creates spin? When I think about it, the ball travels up the club face and slides off creating backspin, grooves would provide resistance and bigger grooves would provide more, so how do grooves affect spin? From what i see, I think they limit spin. I think the roughness of the face matters more than the grooves do.

think of it like this you hit down on a ball right?? if it was smooth it wouldnt catch as good. if you hit down on a ball with lets say a putter would it have backspin?? not much as a driver does if you look at the sweet spot on modern drivers its smooth no grooves thats how you think it gets spin.grooves help spin.

[mjgraniero]

alright, your picture is good, except for that last part. With the grooves, the ball grabs. at that moment, the ball is connected to the club and as the club passes through, it transfers it's momentum to the rotation of the ball. yes? yes. since the ball is connected to the club, 0 momentum is lost and all of it is transfered into the ball, making it rotate.

There it is in a nutshell. The grooves grab the ball, which help impart spin. The more volume the grooves have, the more spin you'll get especially when playing from the rough. Why? Because the deeper grooves collect more grass and still allow the groove edge to grab the ball during contact. If anyone remembers the ViperBite wedge, its another example of how friction creates more spin. The grooves were deeper in addition to having a sandblasted (sandpaper-like) face. The deep grooves combined with the high friction surface imparted a lot of spin, even with hard cover balls like top-flite.