Stroke and Distance on a Lost Ball

[iacas]

From

the comments section of an article on the site regarding changing the penalty for a lost ball from stroke-and-distance to "drop where you think it should be, add a stroke": I said originally: I'm fine with stroke and distance for lost balls, and here's why. The Rules of Golf don't have many grey areas. You're suggesting that people "agree" to where the ball would be. But if you can agree to the area where the ball would be (presumably to within an area of about 25 square yards), why couldn't you just find the ball to begin with? In other words, any area small enough to be "agreeable" should also be small enough an area to find your ball to begin with. And even within that 25 square yard area, would your ball likely be right behind or against a tree or bush, or right out there in the open? How many times have we been looking for our golf ball only to find it 40 yards from where we think it was because it hit a tree or something? No, I'll stick with the Rules the way they are, with stroke and distance for lost balls. Hit a provisional (free practice swing!) and do yourself and your buddies a favor and watch their golf balls for 'em. Then allin said:

you make a good point, but most of the time no one hits a provisional because they have no idea the ball may be lost. I have had balls land in the fariway and not be found. Don't get me started on leaves. And some courses have blind tee shots. We depend on honor and integrity for many of our golf decisions, why is perfect knowledge required here. If your playing partners let you get away with calling a ball headed behind obstacles lost, then neither of you is a real golfer and you probably aren't playing by the rules anyway. Actually I lose very few balls, I have learned, sadly, that usually I haven't hit it as far as I think I have, so back towards the tee is where my ball is.

And finally I replied: If you don't hit a provisional, I dunno, shame on you? What do you want to do - change a rule just because people are sometimes lazy or forgetful? This is a rule only the serious golfer follows anyway. Most just drop where they think their ball should be and play on. Perfect knowledge is required for the reasons I outlined. The ball could behind (or up) a tree. Or in a bush. Or 75 yards away from where you think it is. It's also not the same as a hazard because you can almost always tell where a ball enters a hazard to within a small amount. The rules even say that you must be certain a ball is even in the hazard. But determining where the ball should be within even 250 square yards after it bounces and careens off countless trees? Why? The solution is so simple: try to keep your eye on the ball and hit a provisional when necessary. Golf is a game of honor and integrity, but it's also not a game of opinions and uncertainty. Allowing people to drop wherever they think their ball should be opens a huge can of worms that would probably lead to people fighting. Because again, if you're that certain your ball is in the general area where you'd like to drop, why can't you find it? The fact that it's lost would kind of disprove the opinion that "it should be right about here." I'm sure you'll get a lot of agreement with your take, but the Rules aren't a popularity contest, either. (I posted this thread to continue the conversation.)

[Fourputt]

I have to concur with Erik that stroke and distance is the only possible resolution for a lost ball. If your ball is lost, there is no way to identify a reference point to work from for any other procedure. There is no boundary or margin for the ball to cross. The ball is simply lost, meaning that you don't really have any idea where it might be.

I've seen a ball disappear into a tree in the right rough, the group searched for the allowed 5 minutes without finding the ball, so the player went to play his provisional which was lying in the fairway. After doing so he was just picking up his bag when he saw a bit of white in the LEFT rough... walked over and found his original ball there (to late to help him), more than 75 yards from where he thought it should have been. In my opinion, that debunks any "group decision" on a logical drop point. Lost is just lost... in all fairness, stroke and distance is all that you can do.

[MrKadash]

This is a rule only the serious golfer follows anyway. Most just drop where they think their ball should be and play on.

I agree with your posts. There aren't any "Casual Round Rules of Golf." Therefore, the stroke and distance rule should apply regardless of circumstances. I consider myself a serious golfer, and certainly wouldn't allow any of my playing companions to just drop where they think it would be. They could drop it 50 yards beyond where it is. Too much guesswork, so not happening.

[Hidalgo]

I don't want to see ANY rule changed in the manner in which this one is being discussed. Like was said.....there would be more arguments than you could sort out.

What I WOULD like to see, is the stroke and distance part changed to only a 1-stroke penalty and a ball must be replayed. Same for OB. In my opinion, lying 3 off the tee is a little too harsh of a penalty for an amateur. They have little chance of making par and most times a slim chance of making bogey.

[Fourputt]

I don't want to see ANY rule changed in the manner in which this one is being discussed. Like was said.....there would be more arguments than you could sort out.

What you said is what it already is. Or are you suggesting that the original stroke is to be canceled? So they just got a freebie?

Losing your ball or hitting it clean off the golf course is about as bad a mistake as you can make. It should involve the most severe penalty.

[mad max]

If you don't hit a provisional, I dunno, shame on you? What do you want to do - change a rule just because people are sometimes lazy or forgetful? This is a rule only the serious golfer follows anyway. Most just drop where they think their ball should be and play on.

I do hit provisional's I average around 3 per round. Somtimes the conditions of a course (especially in winter) make finding your ball very difficult especially if you can't see the ball land. In a perfect world all courses would drain properly and be well maintained but that doesn't always happen especially the courses that I can afford to play. I don't think the the writer of the article was talking about the drive deep in the woods that you can't find, (when you know you should hit a provisional) but the shot just off the edge of fairway that for some reason or other you can't find. I don't know how to word this but I think their should be a rule that basically says "If the course conditions make it difficult to find the ball, if a ball is lost in an area that should be playable the player should treat this area as a red stakes hazard." This would allow the average HONEST golfer to play the game with bad course conditions without being penalized. Of course in high level tournaments the committee would make these decisions instead of the player.

I also think that courses should do a better job of updating what is a hazard or O.B. and what is part of the course. A course in my area had a short par 3 with O.B. right and long and a steep downhill with tall grass off the green about 3 yards off the left side of the green. Many times people spend forever looking for their ball in this grass (me included) because it is so close to the green and you know that the ball is right there but you don't want to take the stroke and distance penalty. Further complicating things you can't see the green from the tee, just the flag so you can't see the ball land. I think this area should be a lateral hazard or O.B. but not part of the course. You should not know where your ball is within a 3 yard radius and still only find your ball 40% of the time if you are not in a hazard.

[iacas]

Somtimes the conditions of a course (especially in winter) make finding your ball very difficult especially if you can't see the ball land.

When the course is that bad, in the "winter," we can't post handicap rounds anyway. You're just outside on the occasional warm day.

I don't think the the writer of the article was talking about the drive deep in the woods that you can't find, (when you know you should hit a provisional) but the shot just off the edge of fairway that for some reason or other you can't find.

That's irrelevant - the rules don't have grey areas. How could you possibly define what "a little off the the fairway" is?

I don't know how to word this but I think their should be a rule that basically says "If the course conditions make it difficult to find the ball, if a ball is lost in an area that should be playable the player should treat this area as a red stakes hazard." This would allow the average HONEST golfer to play the game with bad course conditions without being penalized.

Who decides where the imaginary red staked area begins and ends? And you know you can't ground your clubs in red staked areas, right?

I'm only asking those questions to point out the gaping holes with such a proposal. The rules work fine the way they are. If the course conditions are that bad, you could either chalk it up as "not gonna be one of my top 10 of my last 20" or "just goof around time, don't post a score."

[mad max]

I'm only asking those questions to point out the gaping holes with such a proposal. The rules work fine the way they are.

Now that I think about it you are right I was just talking out of my a$$

If the course conditions are that bad, you could either chalk it up as "not gonna be one of my top 10 of my last 20" or "just goof around time, don't post a score."

I don't know how you decide when not to post a score. When the round begins and the practice green looks nice and so does the first hole do you decide I will post this round then you have a horible hole on #13 and you have seen the course is not in the best of shape do you than decide not to post the score. Bear in mind I live in San Francisco and when it is 50 degrees out it is freezing and when it is 80 it is scorching.

[MiniMoe]

the original writers of the rules did not have many wood in which to lose their golf balls.... just thick grass the sheep had not eaten yet. I have lost balls after hitting it in the fairway. I know someone picked it up, but could not prove it.... back to the tee I went. Lost is lost. Not I should not be lost so I don't get penalized.

[Sporks]

If you're a high level player, I can totally understand why you would want to always play stroke and distance. But coming from a high-handicapper point of view, if you didn't hit a provisional because there was no reason to suspect your ball was lost, I see nothing wrong with consulting your partners and dropping a ball. I mean, pace of play is pretty important and it can take a long time to go back and replay a ball (especially if you walk every round like I do). In casual, non-competitive golf, dropping is fine: you play faster, get less stressed, and people behind you are happier.

I wouldn't change the official rule, though. It's better suited as unofficial, and stroke and distance should always be taken if your score is going to mean something after the round (handicap, tournament, etc.)

[Shorty]

But coming from a high-handicapper point of view, if you didn't hit a provisional because there was no reason to suspect your ball was lost, I see nothing wrong with consulting your partners and dropping a ball.

You can do whatever you like, just don't go around saying I had 81 or 79 or 96 or whatever if you choose to ignore the rules. Drop one to save time, but you are no longer scoring.

[Brakkus]

For me this is simple for the casual round and if you are a high handicap.If I'm lost then to save rubbing people up the wrong way.Some just are not patient with less skilled golfers then I take the maximum penalty for the breach of rules which is 2 strokes and play from the general area where I genuinely believed it to land.

[walk18]

One of the courses I play has a lot of tall prairie grass throughout and not all of it is marked as a hazard so for tournament play the club will post a sheet at the first tee declaring those areas as lateral hazards, so it speeds up play.

Overall I hate losing a ball especially when it's a good shot, but I don't see how the rule could be changed otherwise. The moral there is if you're ever in doubt, play a provisional.

[Hidalgo]

What you said is what it already is. Or are you suggesting that the original stroke is to be canceled? So they just got a freebie?

Nope...perhaps I wasn't clear......

You hit your drive OB or lost..... When you re-tee (drop) that's ANOTHER stroke. When you put the second ball into play that's the THIRD stroke. What I was suggesting is that the DROP not count as a stroke. Instead of lying 3 in the fairway it would be better if you were lying only two. There's still the one stroke penalty. Lying three off the tee is a death sentence on that hole for all but the best amateurs. As for involving the most severe penalty, who says WHAT the most severe penalty should be? One stroke...two strokes...three strokes?

[Hidalgo]

You can do whatever you like, just don't go around saying I had 81 or 79 or 96 or whatever if you choose to ignore the rules. Drop one to save time, but you are no longer scoring.

He can say whatever he wants about his score....I could care less...and you should be of the same mindset. Unless under tournament or other competitive conditions, a person breaking the rule in that manner is only hurting themselves by possibly/probably lowering their score that day and thus recording a handicap score that is lower than actual. This results in a lower handicap index and a loss of strokes in competition. They're only hurting themselves.

[Fourputt]

For me this is simple for the casual round and if you are a high handicap.If I'm lost then to save rubbing people up the wrong way.Some just are not patient with less skilled golfers then I take the maximum penalty for the breach of rules which is 2 strokes and play from the general area where I genuinely believed it to land.

Actually the maximum penalty for such a serious breach is disqualification, but that can only be applied in a competition. If a player is truly concerned about pace of play (or more likely too embarrassed

) and doesn't want to return to the previous spot, then he should at least charge himself 2 strokes to make up for the stroke and distance that he is omitting. If his tee shot is the one that's lost, then if he's honest with himself he would be hitting his 4th shot from wherever he decided to drop.

As for involving the most severe penalty, who says WHAT the most severe penalty should be? One stroke...two strokes...three strokes?

The USGA and the R & A determine that. And there is a fairly logical progression that moves from relief without penalty to disqualification, all depending on the severity of the offense. Unlike many who post on golf forums, I've never seen a problem with being charged stroke and distance in a case where you have no ball to play, whether it's lost or OB. And that includes a ball that is OB but recoverable.

There are ways to avoid such risks, by laying up or playing to a safe part of the hole. One who takes a risk and fails should sometimes pay a price for that failure. I admit that sometimes you can play the safe shot and still get stung (I've been there too), but the rules shouldn't be written for the exception, they should be written and applied for normal play.

[Shorty]

He can say whatever he wants about his score....I could care less...and you should be of the same mindset. Unless under tournament or other competitive conditions, a person breaking the rule in that manner is only hurting themselves by possibly/probably lowering their score that day and thus recording a handicap score that is lower than actual. This results in a lower handicap index and a loss of strokes in competition. They're only hurting themselves.

I would be encouraging people to play by the rules, whatever the conditions if you are counting scores. Otherwise it is practice.

[Shorty]

What I was suggesting is that the DROP not count as a stroke. Instead of lying 3 in the fairway it would be better if you were lying only two. There's still the one stroke penalty. Lying three off the tee is a death sentence on that hole for all but the best amateurs.

Too bad.

So is a 4 putt.