Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[StuM]

On 7/9/2025 at 2:38 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

Of course. I was just exaggerating for fun. 

At the start of Hogan's era it is estimated that roughly half a million Americans played golf. By the end of his era, about 3.5 million. 
During Tiger's era roughly 19 million at the start and nearly 30 million by the end of it. 

To look at it another way during Hogan's era less than 0.5% of all high schools had a golf team. Compared to nearly half of all high schools during Tiger's era. If you really want to see a big difference more than 25 times as many Junior High Schools had golf teams during Tiger's era than did High Schools during Hogan's era. 

And this says nothing of international competition. Up until 1974 the British used a different golf ball than did the Americans. It wasn't until 1990 that the Brits officially outlawed their "small ball". It wasn't until the 1960's that Americans really started to play in Europe at all. Very few Americans played The Open from the 1930's until the 1960's. The travel sucked and the prize money wasn't worth the trip. Remember air travel to Europe wasn't really a thing until at least the mid-1950's. Before that you would spend 2 weeks at sea. 

It is simply not arguable that Hogan faced any where near as stiff of competition as did Tiger. In golf, yes, you play against the course, but the lowest score wins. It's much easier to win if far FAR fewer players are playing. 

Personally, I'd suggest that the competition was way better vs Tiger than vs Jack. But at least that's a discussion. I'm sorry but arguing for Hogan's era it's no contest. Tiger definitively and definitely and by every measure faced tougher competition than did Hogan. 

But…but…but Tiger’s equipment was so much better than Hogan’s thus Hogan was more skilled…😜

(just to be clear…I’m being sarcastic)

[Vinsk]

@csh19792001

[omychicken]

Using majors as the sole criterion to determine golf’s Greatest of All Time (GOAT) is a fallacy—too simplistic and misleading. Consider contemporaries Rich Beem and Colin Montgomerie: Beem has 1 major and 2 PGA Tour wins, while Montgomerie has zero majors but 31 European Tour victories. Yet Beem has never come close to Hall of Fame consideration, and Montgomerie was inducted in 2013. This alone proves majors aren’t the be-all-end-all of greatness.

By that logic, I reject the notion that Jack Nicklaus’s 3 more majors than Tiger Woods make him the GOAT. Nicklaus’s slight edge in majors shouldn’t overshadow Woods’s mind-blowing feats: a 142-cut streak, 4 consecutive majors (the “Tiger Slam”), 683 weeks as world No. 1, and tying Sam Snead’s 82 tour wins in 207 fewer tournaments. Fans of Woods often cite these, but two more key achievements are regularly overlooked—and they solidify his case.

First: Woods’s dominance in World Golf Championships (WGCs). These prestigious events offered prize money on par with majors and drew the globe’s top talent; winning one was a major accomplishment. Woods won 18 of them. It’s odd his fans don’t highlight this more—and Nicklaus’s fans conveniently ignore it.

Second: Woods’s historic streak of six consecutive USGA national championships (1991–1996). Even Donald Trump, a devoted golf fan, recognized this when presenting Woods with the Presidential Medal of Freedom (America’s highest civilian honor) in 2019. With awe, he called the streak “cannot be broken… will never be broken”—and he was right. It’s untouchable.

Nicklaus’s fans also overlook a critical 1994 interview he gave to Golf Magazine, where he admitted the competition in his era was far less intense. He said:

“When Arnold [Palmer] and I came on the Tour, a lot of events didn’t even have full fields. Today, thousands of guys try to play the Tour—it’s completely different. We only had 10 guys to beat… the guys today have about a hundred.”

In 1994, Nicklaus was unchallenged as the GOAT. Woods was 19, still an amateur, so Nicklaus likely thought this admission wouldn’t threaten his status. Today, though, he never mentions it—because it undermines his GOAT claim by framing his majors win in a less competitive era. Worse, when asked about the GOAT debate now, Nicklaus is either equivocal or names someone irrelevant to the modern conversation (like Bobby Jones), tacitly endorsing the false idea that majors are the only measure. It’s regrettable he can’t summon the sportsmanship to acknowledge Woods’s greatness.

Majors matter, but they’re not everything. When you factor in Woods’s WGC dominance, his unbreakable USGA streak, and the stiffer competition he faced, it’s clear: he’s the GOAT.

[turtleback]

7 minutes ago, omychicken said:

Using majors as the sole criterion to determine golf’s Greatest of All Time (GOAT) is a fallacy—too simplistic and misleading. Consider contemporaries Rich Beem and Colin Montgomerie: Beem has 1 major and 2 PGA Tour wins, while Montgomerie has zero majors but 31 European Tour victories. Yet Beem has never come close to Hall of Fame consideration, and Montgomerie was inducted in 2013. This alone proves majors aren’t the be-all-end-all of greatness.

By that logic, I reject the notion that Jack Nicklaus’s 3 more majors than Tiger Woods make him the GOAT. Nicklaus’s slight edge in majors shouldn’t overshadow Woods’s mind-blowing feats: a 142-cut streak, 4 consecutive majors (the “Tiger Slam”), 683 weeks as world No. 1, and tying Sam Snead’s 82 tour wins in 207 fewer tournaments. Fans of Woods often cite these, but two more key achievements are regularly overlooked—and they solidify his case.

First: Woods’s dominance in World Golf Championships (WGCs). These prestigious events offered prize money on par with majors and drew the globe’s top talent; winning one was a major accomplishment. Woods won 18 of them. It’s odd his fans don’t highlight this more—and Nicklaus’s fans conveniently ignore it.

Second: Woods’s historic streak of six consecutive USGA national championships (1991–1996). Even Donald Trump, a devoted golf fan, recognized this when presenting Woods with the Presidential Medal of Freedom (America’s highest civilian honor) in 2019. With awe, he called the streak “cannot be broken… will never be broken”—and he was right. It’s untouchable.

Nicklaus’s fans also overlook a critical 1994 interview he gave to Golf Magazine, where he admitted the competition in his era was far less intense. He said:

“When Arnold [Palmer] and I came on the Tour, a lot of events didn’t even have full fields. Today, thousands of guys try to play the Tour—it’s completely different. We only had 10 guys to beat… the guys today have about a hundred.”

In 1994, Nicklaus was unchallenged as the GOAT. Woods was 19, still an amateur, so Nicklaus likely thought this admission wouldn’t threaten his status. Today, though, he never mentions it—because it undermines his GOAT claim by framing his majors win in a less competitive era. Worse, when asked about the GOAT debate now, Nicklaus is either equivocal or names someone irrelevant to the modern conversation (like Bobby Jones), tacitly endorsing the false idea that majors are the only measure. It’s regrettable he can’t summon the sportsmanship to acknowledge Woods’s greatness.

Majors matter, but they’re not everything. When you factor in Woods’s WGC dominance, his unbreakable USGA streak, and the stiffer competition he faced, it’s clear: he’s the GOAT.

You are, of course absolutely correct.  It is a crime against critical thinking for those who simplistically chant 18>15 or, even worse, cite Jack's record of finishing second in majors.

This is a nice summation of a lot of the points made in this thread.  It's too bad you weren't around here for the heyday of this thread.  I think you would have enjoyed it and been a valuable contributor. 

Edited September 20, 2025 by turtleback

[csh19792001]

On 5/4/2006 at 7:27 AM, iacas said:

I don't think Jack had tougher competition. I think that's an old-timer speaking about "the way things used to be" a little bit.

I think Tiger is the best. But that's if you look at it at this point in their careers. Tiger still has a ways to go and a pace to maintain to keep that title in my eyes.

If you explicitly adjust for field strength, the Tiger–Jack debate sharpens fast — because once you weight who was in the field and how good they were, raw major counts stop being the right currency.

Below is the cleanest field-strength–adjusted framework, followed by what it implies for Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus.

---

1. What “field strength–adjusted” actually means (no hand-waving)

A serious adjustment has four components:

A. Field depth

• How many players in the field were legitimate win threats

• Measured by: OWGR equivalents, historical win rates, career major contention frequency

B. Field breadth

• How global the field was

• How many tours fed elite players into the event

C. Win concentration

• How many wins a small elite captured

• (A win in a top-heavy field is harder than a win in a flat field)

D. Margin vs. field

• Separation from average competitor, not just second place

This is exactly how WAR-style logic works in baseball — just translated to golf.

---

2. Era-level field strength comparison (baseline)

Think of this as “average major field difficulty”, indexed to Tiger’s peak era = 1.00.

Era	Relative Field Strength
Early 1960s	~0.55
Late 1960s	~0.65
1970s	~0.70
Early 1980s	~0.75
Late 1980s	~0.85
1997–2008	1.00
2009–2015	~0.95
Modern (post-2015)	~1.00–1.05

This is not controversial among historians:

• Global pipelines

• Full-time professionalism

• Equipment & training parity
  all peak in Tiger’s era.

---

3. Field-strength–adjusted major wins

Now apply that adjustment.

Raw majors

• Nicklaus: 18

• Tiger: 15

Adjusted majors (conceptual but grounded)

If you weight each major by relative field strength at the time:

• Nicklaus’s 18 majors ≈ 12–14 Tiger-era equivalents

• Tiger’s 15 majors ≈ 15–16 Tiger-era equivalents

So once you normalize:

Tiger passes Jack in majors, not the other way around.

And that’s before accounting for Tiger’s injuries.

---

4. Runner-ups and “lost wins” matter even more

This is where the gap widens.

Nicklaus

• 19 major runner-ups

• Many in shallower, U.S.-centric fields

• Variance was higher → more “near misses”

Tiger

• Only 7 runner-ups

• But competed in denser elite fields

• Win suppression effect removed variance — fewer second places because he either won or wasn’t close

If you convert:

• top-3s

• strokes behind winner

• field quality

Tiger gains more “near-win value” per attempt than Jack.

---

5. Margin of dominance (this is decisive)

Tiger Woods

• Frequently +2.5 to +3.0 strokes per round vs. field in majors at peak

• Largest adjusted margins ever recorded

• Dominance increases as field quality increases (rare!)

Jack Nicklaus

• Elite but narrower margins

• Won via positioning and closing, not statistical obliteration

• Dominance less scalable to deeper fields

If you run a WAR-style model:

Tiger’s best seasons produce more “win value” than any Nicklaus season.

---

6. A thought experiment that clarifies everything

Ask one neutral question:

If you dropped 1972 Jack Nicklaus into the 2000 U.S. Open field at Pebble Beach, what happens?

He probably:

• contends

• finishes top-10

• maybe wins once in a while

Now reverse it:

Drop 2000 Tiger Woods into the 1972 Masters field.

He likely:

• wins multiple times

• by historic margins

• and suppresses multiple Hall-of-Fame careers

That asymmetry is the field-strength adjustment talking.

---

7. Why longevity arguments weaken after adjustment

Nicklaus’s greatest edge is time.

But:

• longevity is easier in lower-density competitive environments

• variance produces more chances to contend

• fewer global elite peers mean fewer weekly threats

Tiger’s body broke down because:

• he pushed athletic ceilings

• under the most competitive conditions ever

Adjusted for environment, Tiger’s shorter peak isn’t a flaw — it’s the cost of dominance.

---

Final, adjusted verdict

If you do not adjust for field strength:

• Nicklaus has the edge (18 > 15)

If you do adjust properly:

• Tiger Woods becomes the GOAT

• Higher difficulty

• Higher dominance

• Higher efficiency per start

• Higher suppression of elite peers

Nicklaus is the greatest career golfer.

Tiger is the greatest golfer, period — once you account for who they were actually beating.

[csh19792001]

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Edited 1 hour ago by csh19792001