Ten thousand hours

[65withatriple]

Sports are one of those things that that anyone or almost anyone can become pro, if they have proper training. If you started golfing at 4 years old, and kept on practicing (quality), by the time you're 15 years old you will have more experience than another 15 year old that jus started.

Totally not true!! There are thousands of guys who have played golf their entire lives, had good teachers, and plenty of money and time to devote to the game and never become a professional golfer. It erks me when people actually believe that if they had the time and money they could be a professional athlete. To get to the "Pro" level you have to have natural ability as well as the others stated. Many people play golf their entire lives and never get below a 10 handicap. You would inevitablily be a better golfer if you had these advantages but to say that you could be a "Pro" is SILLY!

[Eeryck]

Totally not true!! There are thousands of guys who have played golf their entire lives, had good teachers, and plenty of money and time to devote to the game and never become a professional golfer. It erks me when people actually believe that if they had the time and money they could be a professional athlete. To get to the "Pro" level you have to have natural ability as well as the others stated. Many people play golf their entire lives and never get below a 10 handicap. You would inevitablily be a better golfer if you had these advantages but to say that you could be a "Pro" is SILLY!

Natural ability is a cop out.

It is an excuse for those that lack drive, motivation, mental fortitiude, dedication and the ability to sacrifice. All of these things can be learned and for many professional athletes are learned at an early age so it appears to be "natural ability." No one can hit a fast ball out of the womb or drive a ball 300 yards just because they exist. Playing golf your whole life and logging 10k hours practicing, experimenting and learning without distraction are completely different. Especially if while playing your whole life you consider it a recreational activity, or just do what you think should be done and never bother to learn or experiment. If you read any story about a top performer or even a pro that sits on the bench, they have spent the majority of their life honing their skill because it brought them great pleasure to compete or play. Many have also said it came at the expense of a "normal" childhood. But that is sacrifice for you. Regards, -E

[ApocG10]

Totally not true!! There are thousands of guys who have played golf their entire lives, had good teachers, and plenty of money and time to devote to the game and never become a professional golfer. It erks me when people actually believe that if they had the time and money they could be a professional athlete. To get to the "Pro" level you have to have natural ability as well as the others stated. Many people play golf their entire lives and never get below a 10 handicap. You would inevitablily be a better golfer if you had these advantages but to say that you could be a "Pro" is SILLY!

I would have to agree. I spent my whole life on the ice with a hockey stick in my hand. Coaches, trainers, hockey schools, 30+hours of icetime a week on top of school. I played university, first line defense, and jhad offers to play semi-pro. But never once did I have a shot at the NHL. I've spent over 10000 hours on the ice. And while I can dominate a rec league game with guys who have played all their life too, im no Chara. Golf, and every other sport, are the same. It takes a mind that was born for the game, and a body that can perform at the top level all the time.

[ApocG10]

Natural ability is a cop out.

Thats just not true. Some people are naturally better athletes than others. Hockey payed for my future. 5 years of University didn't cost me a cent, but I wanted to play in the NHL. I worked out every day, I was on the ice, practicing at 6am every day, I was on the ice every night, practicing, playing, power skating. I dedicated 24 years of my life to hockey, and im only 28. My degree is the consolation prize. Once youve trained like a pro, to be a pro, for over 20 years, then you can tell me what it actually takes...

[Eeryck]

Hockey payed for my future.

You played the probabilities smartly. At least you have a future at this point. But your statement contributes to my point. The focus on the degree split your dedication, you committed part way to hockey and part way to another future (university degree) if hockey did not work. Many who make it pro don't have a functional university degree, their sacrifice.

Much as in golf, even your miss left you in a good position to post a good score in life. Regards, -E

[65withatriple]

You played the probabilities smartly. At least you have a future at this point. But your statement contributes to my point. The focus on the degree split your dedication, you committed part way to hockey and part way to another future (university degree) if hockey did not work. Many who make it pro don't have a functional university degree, their sacrifice.

Many who are pro also have functional degrees. How were they able to do it and others who only focused on their sport didnt. Your opionion is yours, but I think it lacks a real perspective. Have you tried to be a pro? Or are you just certain you could if you were to try?

[ApocG10]

You played the probabilities smartly. At least you have a future at this point. But your statement contributes to my point. The focus on the degree split your dedication, you committed part way to hockey and part way to another future (university degree) if hockey did not work. Many who make it pro don't have a functional university degree, their sacrifice.

Its not that simple. I gave everything to hockey. We had tutors on the bus with us because we were never in class. I just happened to be doing something i loved in school as well as on the ice.

Time means nothing. Ive played with a few NHL'ers, and they were head and shoulders above everyone else in ability from the time they were children. And they are the bottom tier guys. 3rd and 4th line.

[NM Golf]

Sports are one of those things that that anyone or almost anyone can become pro, if they have proper training. If you started golfing at 4 years old, and kept on practicing (quality), by the time you're 15 years old you will have more experience than another 15 year old that jus started.

Natural ability is a cop out.

You guys are completely wrong. You cannot teach someone to throw a ball 95 mph. You cannot learn how to to run the 100 meters in less than 10 seconds. Practicing alone won't allow you to hit a 300 yard drive. Unless you have some god given natural talent all the practice in the world won't do you any good. While most PGA pros have spent the better part of their lives playing golf, they still possess an underlying talent that seperates them from the rest of the pack. For every guy on tour there are probably 50 guys that did the same thing growing up but did not have the talent to take it to the lext level. Look at the world of golf today. There are literally thousands of kids that play golf and have dreams of playing professionally. They work at it, take lessons, and beat balls until the cows come home. I see them everyday at the course. Odds are very, very few of them will even be able to play division 1 college much less make it to the PGA tour. It comes down to the fact that talent by itself can be wasted without practice, work ethic, and desire, but at the same time desire, practice, and work ethic are all pretty useless without some natural talent. While most professional athletes do have a very good work ethic, its their natural talent that got them to the point where they are at the top of their game. A very smart man once said, "There is no substitute for talent..."

[Eeryck]

Many who are pro also have functional degrees. How were they able to do it and others who only focused on their sport didnt. Your opionion is yours, but I think it lacks a real perspective. Have you tried to be a pro? Or are you just certain you could if you were to try?

My perspective comes from several places, first off reading about many pro athletes paths to success. Secondly, having discussions with my uncles father at family parties, Gary Knafelc (FWIW - Former Green Bay Packer). Finally, a fair bit from my own life, in what it has taken to become a successful Professional Engineer, my chosen path and the effort to which I have committed the majority of my life.

To respond furthermore, the true nature of this discussion is nature vs. nurture and fate vs. free choice. In both cases my personal opinion is nurture and free choice. I do enjoy hearing the other side and discussing it, as it gives me the opportunity to verify or modify my own positions in life.

Its not that simple. I gave everything to hockey. We had tutors on the bus with us because we were never in class. I just happened to be doing something i loved in school as well as on the ice.

I am sorry but I am going to bow out of this one, any further comments I make would be ad hominem because the subject has become you or more completely your missed attempt at playing in the NHL.

Regards, -E

[ApocG10]

Well said NM. Im no golf pro, and wouldnt begin to fathom what it would take to make the PGA tour. But I know that every sport i've ever played, the best were just better than everyone else, plain and simple.

[Eeryck]

You guys are completely wrong.

I am not sure how anyone can be wrong on a matter of opinion. Just to think of the difficutly (and perhaps ethics) involved in performing tests via Scientific Method on humans to prove there is or is not a genetic "natural" "god-given" ability factor in how humans perform is mind boggling.

Again, in response I continue to believe I have the ability to manage my future based on probabilities (free will) and that the everyones physical human body is capable of much more than it is given credit for (nurture). Obviously, the other perspective exists and it is always a topic worth discussing. Regards, -E

[65withatriple]

I am not sure how anyone can be wrong on a matter of opinion. Just to think of the difficutly (and perhaps ethics) involved in performing tests via Scientific Method on humans to prove there is or is not a genetic "natural" "god-given" ability factor in how humans perform is mind boggling.

Do you not believe that you were born with the intelligence to allow you to become and engineer??? Of course it took hard work etc. but you have to have a certain level of smarts to even attempt it. Do you think a kid with learning disabilities could become an engineer? I think not. Not everyone could be an engineer, no matter how hard the try!!! I agree with the basic principle of what your saying, but to get to the top tier of any sport it takes more than just hard work. I agree some athletes make it to the pros with less talent than others and must work harder to stay....but they are still blessed with plenty of natural talent.

[NM Golf]

I am not sure how anyone can be wrong on a matter of opinion.

Not an opinion, its pretty much a fact until you can tell me how to teach someone to run the 100 meters in 9.68 and throw a baseball 95 mile per hour. If being able to do these types of things was entirely based on free will, don't you think there would be more people doing them?

Just to think of the difficutly (and perhaps ethics) involved in performing tests via Scientific Method on humans to prove there is or is not a genetic "natural" "god-given" ability factor in how humans perform is mind boggling.

Not really worth discussing, I have never been more sure of a fact in my life.

Talent is god given just like size, eye color, hair color etc. You can no more teach someone to run fast or throw a ball hard than you can teach them to grow tall or have green eyes. I think you have been listening to too many Tony Robbins tapes.

[Eeryck]

Do you not believe that you were born with the intelligence to allow you to become and engineer???

I don't, ever since I was a kid the only thing I ever wanted to do was not be where I was currently at, a child raised by my mom with a drunk as a father. School was a free opportunity and I was imprinted early on that if I did well in school I could be successful.

I can't look back and say that anything was ever just intuitively obvious, there is always a sequence of repeated experiences drawn upon to get to the next step.

Of course it took hard work etc. but you have to have a certain level of smarts to even attempt it. Do you think a kid with learning disabilities could become an engineer? I think not.

This is always a sensitive topic, I offer this. Since there are no perfect people out there, everyone has a certain ammount of disabilities, those who are more than 2-3 standard deviations from "average" will have a more difficult time of things. Taking out of the discussion the extremes, if we could measure exactly, those that fall withing 2-3 standard deviations of average, it is my opinion that their final potential is a function of their choices and upbringing.

This is just a more technical bit about belief in nurture and free will, but also a concession that of course there are some situations where the odds are stacked against you. Given the large population of the world, I am fairly confident that a google search would yield several examples of Engineers who overcame "learning disabilities" to be successful in their career.

Not everyone could be an engineer, no matter how hard the try!!! I agree with the basic principle of what your saying, but to get to the top tier of any sport it takes more than just hard work. I agree some athletes make it to the pros with less talent than others and must work harder to stay....but they are still blessed with plenty of natural talent.

So everyone has some degree of natural talent then? It seems that tapping into that talent would be the determining factor. I think we have found where we differ in opinion. =)

Regards, -E

[Eeryck]

Not an opinion, its pretty much a fact until you can tell me how to teach someone to run the 100 meters in 9.68 and throw a baseball 95 mile per hour.

There are quite a few people that perform these feats. There is a large opportunity cost (time) that ultimately becomes a limiting factor. The very nature of this thread and discussion.

In fact, if it were natural ability that made these things possible, considering the 6billion people currently living, not considering all that have passed on, probability may suggest that there should be a lot more that have accomplished these feats.

Not really worth discussing, I have never been more sure of a fact in my life.

The first bold point is where we differ and I will not continue that discussion, matters of faith are for each individual.

The topic is red is ad hominem to which you can find more information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem I realize you are a sandtrap staffer, I will not respond to further comments that you post in this thread because it will just lead to digression off topic at this point. Regards, -E

[Eeryck]

There are quite a few people that perform these feats.

The 9.68 faster than world record (9.69 if wikipedia is correct) for the 100-meter may have slightly tripped me up. Obviously, no one has gone that fast yet so it is not possible for many to have already accomplished it. That does not change who has the potential to do it though.

Regards, -E

[65withatriple]

I don't, ever since I was a kid the only thing I ever wanted to do was not be where I was currently at, a child raised by my mom with a drunk as a father. School was a free opportunity and I was imprinted early on that if I did well in school I could be successful.

Your opinion in no where close to reality. I teach kids everyday that could study 10 hours a day and could never get through any college. Kids are either born intelligent or not. Just because some get better educations dosent mean they are any more or less intelligent. Their ability to learn is given to them genetically by there parents and there is nothing you can do to change it. Another ex......We are born with either fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. There isnt a world class sprinter alive with predominately slow twitch muscles nor is there a world class marathoner with predominately quick twitch. You cant be both!!!

Some people with hard work can get to places in life that nobody would believe....I know this is true. Some people end up with nothing that should have had everything.....I know this is true. But as the other poster on this thread says "you cant teach a guy to throw a 95 mph fast ball".

[kafka01]

Not an opinion, its pretty much a fact until you can tell me how to teach someone to run the 100 meters in 9.68 and throw a baseball 95 mile per hour. If being able to do these types of things was entirely based on free will, don't you think there would be more people doing them?

Of course you cant teach anybody to run 100 in 9.68 - you need to be born with the right - very specific - genes to be able to achieve this. Just look at the guys who win all the marathons - well, they are good at it, cuz they developed these genes over centuries.

BUT - lets get back to golf - you dont need to inherited such specific genes to excel in this sport - just look at the wide varity of people who suceed in golf (Daly vs. Woods dont have too much in common and still achieved to become major champions). A general flexibility and fast muscles is pretty much a solid base you can build upon. All other things actually can be teached and practiced in this kind of game.