Scratch without lessons?

[TN94z]

I got down to a 4 with no lessons either but I chose to go with a teacher to get to scratch. He is the type of teacher that builds on what you have and doesn't try to turn you into that "robot" mentioned above. We will see how this goes. So far my handicap has went up a bit and I expect it to go up a little more while I am making the changes but I fully exepct to drop after the changes and then for my short game to get me to scratch from there......

[iacas]

I agree with this, especially if you don't have the perfect golf swing, a pro is going to want to change you around a little bit and you'll probably go backwards before you ever get better - that's if, you ever improve.

I don't agree with the "if you ever improve" bit. If you choose a good instructor, you will improve. You may go backwards at first - but if you set your expectations properly, you should be okay in the end.

I'm going through the same exact predicament. I wrote a whole thread about my choice of instructor. I've had three lessons with him and my handicap's gone down from 4-ish where I started the year to a 2.0 right now. The difference between before when I was working on my own to now is that now I know a few things: 1) I know that I still have a lot of room to improve. I don't feel like I may have reached the end of the road or hit my head on some sort of ceiling like when I was self taught. 2) I know what I have to do to improve. When I was self-taught it was often a matter of maintenance - I'd just try to hold on to what I was doing. Now I know not only what I'm doing wrong when I do something wrong, but I know what the next step is going to be.

Lessons can be dangerous. Judging by your HCP you are a player, but pros can often make recommendations that are simply too drastic for the average person, mainly because they only know one way to swing a club.

Yes, lessons "can" be dangerous, but how often are they? How often are pros so lousy that they know only one way to swing a club, and what are the odds that a low-handicap golfer is not only going to choose one to begin with but stick with him and let him change and mess up his swing?

One of the nice things about knowing your golf swing so well is that you can spot someone who's BSing you or someone who wants to make changes to mold you into a certain type of swinger regardless of your physique, current swing, etc. So, while I urge the appropriate amount of caution, I don't think the chances of screwing up your swing are all that big if you do your due diligence, ask the right questions, etc.

I got down to a 4 with no lessons either but I chose to go with a teacher to get to scratch. He is the type of teacher that builds on what you have and doesn't try to turn you into that "robot" mentioned above. We will see how this goes. So far my handicap has went up a bit and I expect it to go up a little more while I am making the changes but I fully exepct to drop after the changes and then for my short game to get me to scratch from there......

Indeed.

[CG031]

I don't agree with the "if you ever improve" bit. If you choose a good instructor, you will improve. You may go backwards at first - but if you set your expectations properly, you should be okay in the end.

Most of the time, yes, you are certainly right if you base it off the percentages. But, of course there are plenty of exceptions of good players who change their swings to try to become 'great' players and just end up going backwards, which leads to a loss of confidence...so yeah, most of the time you'll end up getting better as you are striving for in the beginning, but you never know...it's a risk that you have to be willing to take.

[TN94z]

Most of the time, yes, you are certainly right if you base it off the percentages. But, of course there are plenty of exceptions of good players who change their swings to try to become 'great' players and just end up going backwards, which leads to a loss of confidence...so yeah, most of the time you'll end up getting better as you are striving for in the beginning, but you never know...it's a risk that you have to be willing to take.

I can't really say that I agree with this. You will, more than likely, go backwards at first because you are doing things that you haven't done in the past. The loss of confidence, in my opinion, comes with a lack of patience. You have to know going into lessons that there is a good chance that you won't play at your normal levels until you get used to the changes being made. The people that lack this patience and get frustrated usually stop the lessons and then they are caught between their old swings thoughts merged with new swing thoughts and that is where you can get screwed up. With any teacher that is worth his title, I can't see how a person couldn't get any better unless it was just a physical issue that wouldn't allow them to get better regardless of what they did.

If they were that much of a risk, the pros wouldn't work with teachers. I mean these guys depend on winning to make a living...yet they change their swings and work on their swings constantly. My teacher tells me all of the time that he believes "every person should have the opportunity to know the correct way to swing if their body allows them to."

[CG031]

I can't really say that I agree with this. You will, more than likely, go backwards at first because you are doing things that you haven't done in the past. The loss of confidence, in my opinion, comes with a lack of patience. You have to know going into lessons that there is a good chance that you won't play at your normal levels until you get used to the changes being made. The people that lack this patience and get frustrated usually stop the lessons and then they are caught between their old swings thoughts merged with new swing thoughts and that is where you can get screwed up. With any teacher that is worth his title, I can't see how a person couldn't get any better unless it was just a physical issue that wouldn't allow them to get better regardless of what they did.

So then why has there been good players who have tried to change their swing (to gain more distance, for example Ian Baker-Finch) and have gotten run off the tour because they were shooting so high?

I think it's certainly possible to get worse with lessons once you get to a prescise level in your game - especially if you are someone who has been built off your own swing patterns and what works for you (what I'm saying is, you've never taken a lesson before)...it could be dangerous if you work with someone who completely wants to break EVERYTHING in your swing down instead of making minor changes... More often then not though, it can help you play better for sure. But if you select the wrong teacher you may go backwards for good...

[TN94z]

So then why has there been good players who have tried to change their swing (to gain more distance, for example Ian Baker-Finch) and have gotten run off the tour because they were shooting so high?

I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just don't agree. I can't see how a Pro that just wanted to gain distance in his swing could get so bad that he was ran off tour. Didn't Ian just play in a tour event? Anyway, the last part of your statement was basically my exception to the rule. A teacher that builds on what you have and doesn't try to completely rebuild your swing is great. A teacher that completely wants to rebuild your swing (for the wrong reasons) is what can hurt you.

Tiger completely changed his swing 2 or 3 times....he is still number one. Sometimes your swing needs to be completely rebuilt....look at Barkley for example

[shankapotamus]

I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just don't agree. I can't see how a Pro that just wanted to gain distance in his swing could get so bad that he was ran off tour.

But, that's what seriously happened.

[Scottydoint]

I just started getting lessons a month ago and was around a 4 without lessons. I have some big swing flaws to correct, but I'm confident I will have them fixed with in the next couple of weeks.

[DavidFehertysBike]

Ive had lessons with the same guy since the day ive picked up a club. Its been a great advantage to me having a teacher help me through my frustrations with the swing. But in Jay-Birds case since he is already a great player without the lessons, he may only want a coach for minor tweaks and adjustments, or the occasional fundementals checkup. He would be going to a guy that knows nothing about him or is swing and a clash of ideas might happen. He doenst need anybody imposing personal swing beliefs on him, when his system has worked pretty well.

[saltman]

You used to be under three and now you're a 13?

I took almost 13 years off. Just starting to get back into it, but haven't played enough rounds to show any scoring. Up until recently, I had been fighting the driver badly and that would lead to huge numbers. Can't do much when you are hitting 3 off the tee, 3 or 4 times per round.

I suspect by the end of the year, I will be back into single digits. The driver is much closer and I am giving myself chances.

[TN94z]

But, that's what seriously happened.

With Ian you mean? To me, if a pro wants to gain distance and that is all and his game gets so messed up that he gets kicked off tour...then there was a much bigger issue there than just his teacher