Tiger Woods - is it time for a coaching change?

[uppi]

I have heard more than one ESPN sportswriter say Tiger should go back to Butch Harmon. And just not for missing a cut this past week, but because of how wild and inconsistent he has been under Haney specifically with the driver. I have heard many arguments on this forum that Tiger has been winning IN SPITE of his coaching/swing change. It seems like his swing has changed so much under Haney that there is nothing left of his "natural swing" and he is trying to force everything. To me the way he is swearing and banging his clubs all the time, he never seems very comfortable anymore. Its as if hes lost that mental edge/confidence somewhere between the 2008 US open and now. Would a new swing coach be good for Tiger? Discuss.

And I think Haney is a great coach, im just wondering if he is the right coach for Tiger?

[BASHERBAKER69]

Yes, I think Butch Harmon could really help him. He's not done too badly under Hank but the swing is not in great shape at the moment. I think Butch is a big character though and perhaps it may not work as Tiger likes to be the boss!

[iacas]

Yet another example of how dumb writers can be (or try to be on purpose to stir up controversy and generate traffic).

And just not for missing a cut this past week, but because of how wild and inconsistent he has been under Haney specifically with the driver.

Tiger was missing fairways in blustery conditions with irons, too.

And his last several tournaments with the driver have shown remarkable improvement. He was 4th at Congressional in driving distance and 7th in driving accuracy. We all remember what he did at The Memorial, too. And he was pretty accurate at the U.S. Open as well - he didn't putt well (or chip well). So much for that theory.

It seems like his swing has changed so much under Haney that there is nothing left of his "natural swing" and he is trying to force everything.

Well now it sounds like you're practically copying one of the articles I read. Original thought, please, or at least cite the source so the proper person can get credit for the silliness!

To me the way he is swearing and banging his clubs all the time, he never seems very comfortable anymore.

Yeah, he's won a third of the tournaments he's played this year, finished in the top ten in all the rest except the one played on a course he'd never seen before in bad weather - and Tiger's not great in bad weather at all, never really has been.

And all after a nine-month layoff from major knee surgery. Your (i.e. the writer's) memory is REALLY short. I think Tiger probably knows what's best for Tiger, and none of us are in any position to second guess him. Tiger's far more consistent under Hank Haney. His winning percentage is higher, as are his top-10s and so on. He played worse at times - and probably not any better - under Butch Harmon. That says it right there. Twice Tiger's gone through swing changes. He nearly goes winless in those stretches, but he comes out a better golfer (he says, and again, who are we to question that) in the end. This period is simply another mini swing change with the "new knee" and all. The fact that he's played as well as he has during this mini change, as consistently as he has, I think is a testament to Hank Haney, not a detriment.

[Bo the Golfer]

As usual Erik, great retort!

[BASHERBAKER69]

We'll see how Tiger does at the US PGA- if he struggles there then the alarm bells will be ringing properly. Come to think of it I think Jack's record is not in danger of being surpassed any time soon. 18 plus majors is not a given at all in my view.

Augusta is a tight tough course, and with the way he's been playing he will struggle to contend there in the future, and this applies to the British open too. The US Open and USPGA tour are traditionally on longer courses- Tiger is long but there are other players now who are just as long as he is..so winning these events is not a given now either.

[ElWagonne]

We'll see how Tiger does at the US PGA- if he struggles there then the alarm bells will be ringing properly. Come to think of it I think Jack's record is not in danger of being surpassed any time soon. 18 plus majors is not a given at all in my view.

I call BS on this one here. So he needs a new coach after missing a single cut, but finishing top 10 in every other event, and having the most wins on tour for the season to date??? I'm not seeing it.

[BASHERBAKER69]

But he has played and won this season in spite of his swing not because of it. His season has been very mediocre by Tiger's standards- and the thread is asking whether he needs a new coach...in my view he does. He's got a lot of talent but could definitely do better by his high standards...come on, this isn't some run of the mill player we 're talking about, it's Tiger Woods.

If he wants to win another major, his swing needs to improve. Tiger's career is now about the major tournaments, and he will not be satisfied with winning routine tournaments on the PGA tour or even the Fed Ex cup. I think Butch will bring a bit of discipline back in to his game, and club abuse etc is just another sign of his lack of discipline.

[DavidFehertysBike]

Tiger doesnt need a new coach or a new swing or whatever. I doubt Cink and Glover won their majors because of highly tweaked new swings. Tiger just needs to play better in the majors. From the comments that i read, it seemed to me that Tiger wasnt very comfortable on Turnberry at all. It just wasent a course that suited him. I expect Tiger to own St. Andrews next year.

[uppi]

Yes, tiger has won 3 tournaments this year with some top 10's. Average year for him at best. Yes Tiger is leading the money list and wins category, but in my opinion his competition has not been stellar, particularly in majors. A practical no name wins Us Open, and a 60 year old almost wins the British, and he still can't get it done. Hell if Tiger doesn't blow up on a series of holes in the US and British, he's right there.
Yes Tiger put the ball in the fairway at Congressional, he hit 3 wood the majority of the time. Didn't he bogey the long par 4 every day of the week because he lashed his driver into the deep stuff. Yes he gets hot once in a while, but I don't ever remember him being this streaky (win one week, miss the cut the next) heck he used to win 4-5 tournaments straight.

[ControlJunkie]

I have heard more than one ESPN sportswriter say Tiger should go back to Butch Harmon. And just not for missing a cut this past week, but because of how wild and inconsistent he has been under Haney specifically with the driver.

That doesnt look to be the case to me. After coming back from the knee surgery, which he has cited as something that has contributed to his ability to be more consistent, he's the most accurate he's been since 2002, with a 63.45 driving accuracy percentage so far this year. Even during his run from 1999-2001, his accuracy wasnt the greatest on tour. I dont remember Tiger ever being the most accurate driver on tour. I might be dreaming this up, but didnt he even say at one point that he was fine with playing from the rough, if he's closer to the pin? Yeah, Turnberry was rough on him, definitely, but it's funny how all of this speculation was non-existent a week ago...

[trog2233]

These threads crack me up. Tiger wins a tournment and hes the greatest ever. Tiger doesnt win and he needs to change everything he sucks haha.

Relax he's human. He will probably win his next event. Hes still amazing.

[uttexas]

Tiger needs to be playing more competitive golf. I understand a slow ramp up after an injury, but he has said that his knee hasn't felt this good in ten years.

IMO, he needs to be playing a three weeks on/ one week off schedule to get the feel of his game back.

He has shown us as recently as three weeks ago that he can strike the ball accurately and pitch/chip/putt well. He just needs to be playing a bit more (imo) to get all the way back on track.

[MSDOGS1976]

Tiger needs to be playing more competitive golf. I understand a slow ramp up after an injury, but he has said that his knee hasn't felt this good in ten years.

I agree. Plus at this stage of the game, he probably doesn't need a coach. He has plenty of video to analyze his swing. I can't believe he doesn't know what's going on with his swing. He has just got to get it done at this point.

[CG031]

He's won three tournaments this year - and that's all with a half a season off, I think he's going to be just fine and doesn't need to change.

[jrm1493]

One thing about Butch: he is probably a really good coach but he is an arrogant know it all according to my neighbor, who played with him from at the Bayou golf course in Texas City, where Butch had his first job as a pro before making it big.

My neighbor played this muni goat farm (actually a fun little course along Galveston Bay) all the time in the early 80's and was paired with him one time and said he was an arrogant bastard who offered unsolicited advice the entire round, while talking about how good his own game was. My neighbor said he probably gave some good advise but he was such a jerk that he ignored it all. My neighbor also estimates that Butch shot well in excess of 85.

I can image that Tiger wouldn't like being around someone with a sandpaper personality that thinks they are smarter than him, even if that person does actually have good things to say.

[uppi]

Even during his run from 1999-2001, his accuracy wasnt the greatest on tour. I dont remember Tiger ever being the most accurate driver on tour. I might be dreaming this up, but didnt he even say at one point that he was fine with playing from the rough, if he's closer to the pin?

Yes thats true but he also hit the ball about 30-40 yards farther back then too. The hole point of haney's flatter makeover of tigers old "upright" butch harmon swing was to give him more accuracy/consistency off the tee. The downside to this new swing was he does not hit the ball quite as far as he used to, as evidenced during the masters when Phil was bombing it way past him. Yet despite his loss in distance, he hasnt gotten ANY more consistent off the tee, in fact I would venture to say he is worse.

[ControlJunkie]

Yes thats true but he also hit the ball about 30-40 yards farther back then too. The hole point of haney's flatter makeover of tigers old "upright" butch harmon swing was to give him more accuracy/consistency off the tee. The downside to this new swing was he does not hit the ball quite as far as he used to, as evidenced during the masters when Phil was bombing it way past him. Yet despite his loss in distance, he hasnt gotten ANY more consistent off the tee, in fact I would venture to say he is worse.

In Augusta, Phil was hitting driver, Tiger was hitting 3W for the most part. It's a misconception I've seen quite a few times because the announcers tried to play it up without giving you all the details. Kinda like they play up this fake hatred between the two. I cant comment on his distance on all out let 'er rip long drives, but Tiger is only averaging roughly 4 yards less now than he was during that stretch. What makes it seem so much different now is that other players have stepped up their game throughout the past few years and caught up to him distance-wise. During that stretch, Tiger and Daly were the leaders somewhere around 300-305, whereas now, you have people like Bubba Watson averaging around 310-315. Tiger didnt really lose distance, others did what they had to do to catch up with him and pass him. I think his competition is a little better now than it was during that stretch as well.

[Awsi Dooger]

Sorry, it's not a 50/50 comparison to the Haney years and the Harmon years. A top pro golfer should peak in his late 20s through mid to late 30s. Harmon helped produce amazing dominant results when Tiger was in his late teens to mid 20s. Haney inherited Tiger at a significantly better time than Harmon did. It's like trying to judge a head football coach with a rookie or second year QB compared to a coach who took over when that QB was in the prime of his career.

The question is what would Tiger's record look like, and his swing look like, if he had maintained Harmon. I'm confident it would be superior on both accounts. For one thing, I never believed it was a complete coincidence that Mickelson woke up and won his first major at a period when Tiger was slumping, post-Harmon. During that 2003-2004 window when Tiger didn't win a major, Mickelson and others did not feel as threatened and the confidence surged. Mickelson responded with the 2004 Masters win and that carried over to great form and two more majors, until the 2006 Winged Foot debacle which set him back.

Augusta is par 72. Tiger feasts on par 72 majors. Haney's record with Tiger is 1 for 6 at Augusta.

Nicklaus' swing never varied much, certainly not as awful as Tiger's swing can look at its worst. Brandel Chamblee made that point late last week when Tiger missed the cut, that Nicklaus, Hogan and other alltime greats didn't have the ball striking lows that Tiger finds. It shouldn't be happening in his early 30s.