Say NO! to gps/yardage computers

[denver_nuggs_15]

I've changed my mind. I'm not saving up for a GPS, I want one of these things - can you provide a link?

I'm still working on one, but for right now you can use your brain.

[iacas]

I got the impression from the original post that he was specifically talking about GPS's. The OP never used the word laser, but instead "yardage computer." To me that sounds like a handheld GPS unit. I know someone brought up a mechanical eye (meaning laser), but I don't think that's what the OP was talking about (meaning lasers).

That's irrelevant. Laser and GPS are part of the same class, and it's pointless and even counterproductive to split that hair. I've always answered from the position of a laser and several other people have as well. I will continue to include laser rangefinders.

I've used every modern yardage-finding device and I don't think that any speed up play.

Over guessing at a yardage in general? Maybe.

Over pacing it off or using any other method to reasonably accurately determine distance? Apparently you're incapable of operating one efficiently.

And I know my yardage is right.

No you don't.

I'm almost always +/-1 or 2 yards to the pin when compared to a laser (I have a pin sheet) and I wholeheartedly believe I'm more accurate than a GPS.

I doubt you're faster than a laser and I know you're not more accurate. Taking out your pinsheet and doing the math - and finding a sprinkler head and pacing that off - takes a lot of time.

Plus you undoubtedly introduce errors in your calculations when you're well to the side of a sprinkler head, not only because the yardage is different than the stepped off yardage from a sprinkler head but because your angle from the pin location is different than what's on your sheet.

Walk off your own yardage

Or take five to ten seconds to hit the flag with a laser. Yeah... the laser's gonna win every time for speed and accuracy.

First off, games, when created, were meant to be played a certain way. Do you think the founders would advocate the bomb and gauge system?

I don't know - what are we gauging?

You're now making a specious, silly argument that's been refuted several times already, and one which I'm not going to bother to respond to beyond pointing this out in the hopes you'll scroll up and re-read. When you figure out how to unearth someone from 1600, let me know. Until then, I'll maintain that they'll recognize the game just fine. The game is still very much about "play the ball as it lies" and "get it in a hole far away in as few strokes as possible."

[lumpuckeroo]

That isnt quite what i meant. Im not talking about knowing a distance or guessing and then hitting a ball. Its using a club and playing a shot based on imagination and feel. Ived used 9 irons from 80 yards before. So what i was trying to get at is not looking at a distance and then mechanically picking a club based on that. It can be detrimental to your more natural game, sometimes.

I'm with you, but don't you think that kind of seperates golfers in general. Those that play by feel vs. those that are mechanical. I could be off base but I see the GPS/Rangefinders as an information source, that's all. So regardless of the information, if you need to create a shot you would still go about it the same way.

I think this same kind of conversations went on in the early '60s when Jack started using yardage books. I really don't see the GPS/Rangefinders as anything different then a modern yardage book, FWIW.

[Fourputt]

That isnt quite what i meant. Im not talking about knowing a distance or guessing and then hitting a ball. Its using a club and playing a shot based on imagination and feel. Ived used 9 irons from 80 yards before. So what i was trying to get at is not looking at a distance and then mechanically picking a club based on that. It can be detrimental to your more natural game, sometimes.

Why do you (and several others here) seem to believe that the fact that I get my yardages by a laser and you get them pacing and calculating somehow makes me more mechanical than you are? Do you really think that just because I shoot an object with my Bushnell that I subsequently turn off my brain? That all of a sudden I'm insensitive to the wind? That I can't see the hill in front of me? That I'll now totally ignore the fact that my ball is on a downhill lie?

That is just another poorly conceived and completely ludicrous notion that the naysayers keep spouting. I simply have better, more accurate distance information to add to those other considerations than you do. Contrary to what you think, using a GPS or Laser doesn't make one brain dead. Sorry to say, but all of you cave men don't have a single reasonable argument to stand on aside from the fact that you just don't like electronic rangefinders. That's fine with me. As long as you don't hold up traffic while you're figuring out your shot then you can do as you please. But please don't try to tell us that the game's founders had this or that in mind 400 years ago. They played a game that was reasonable for the technology of the time. As the times changed, and the technology changed, so did the equipment that the game is played with. And you ALL... every single one of you... are benefiting from that technology in one form or another. So hop down from your soapboxes and give us all a break from this silliness.

[denver_nuggs_15]

I doubt you're faster than a laser and I know you're not more accurate. Taking out your pinsheet and doing the math - and finding a sprinkler head and pacing that off - takes a lot of time.

I know I'm not more accurate than a laser and I never claimed to be. I claimed to be +/-1 or 2 yards on average. I'm just as fast on average (sometimes slower and sometimes faster). I compete against these things when I work. If lasers are faster (on average) than I am, I won't have a job much longer (or my pay will go down). That's how I know I'm just as fast (sometimes faster). The argument about time has been beaten to death and none of us have studies to back up what we've been saying. We have personal experience and I think I've gotten more yardages in the past 4 years than most golfers. That's how I'm forming my opinion on the time factor. And honestly, I don't know who brought it up, but it's probably a little off topic. Wasn't the original post about how GPS's or lasers don't fit with how the founders would want the game to be played?

Plus you undoubtedly introduce errors in your calculations when you're well to the side of a sprinkler head, not only because the yardage is different than the stepped off yardage from a sprinkler head but because your angle from the pin location is different than what's on your sheet.

Then you have to be good at walking the yardage off. And figuring out what the pin is doing from a different angle. That's a mental thing that I think, though we can't ask them now, the founders wanted. More thinking is good. After all, golf is probably more mental than physical and if you start taking mental parts away from it, it becomes more physical...that's probably not how the founders wanted the game to be played.

Or take five to ten seconds to hit the flag with a laser. Yeah... the laser's gonna win every time for speed and accuracy.

That's just insulting to me. My bet still stands if there are any takers. I usually have yardages either before or just as I step up to my ball with my bag on my shoulder, and I don't think anything can beat that in terms of speed. But, speed really doesn't matter in this debate.

Edit: I know this is offtopic and I appologize. It's just very insulting when anyone questions your method of doing your job. I know how to find yardages very efficiently. As in, fast and using as little energy as possible. And if someone wants to tell me that a computer (or anything or anyone really) can do [half of] my job better and faster on average, then I have to object. Sorry for the offtopic stuff Erik, but that comment was very, very insulting to me. I have pride in what I do and I'll be damned if lasers or GPS's are better than me. By the way, I have no problem with technology like it may seem. It's more convenient sometimes when I caddy, but in no way better.

The game is still very much about "play the ball as it lies" and "get it in a hole far away in as few strokes as possible."

And the game is very much about thinking then making a decision based on knowledge that you have. And GPS's and lasers take away from that. It's one less thing you have to worry about mentally. And obviously that makes the game easier, but it also makes it more physical IMO. Again, I don't think that's the nature of the game. Maybe I'm more concerned with where it all stops. Wind calculators, humidity indeces, etc. will be made for golf and if they will be legal or not has yet to be seen (they don't have the same popularity as GPS's or lasers yet). If golf becomes, "Here's what it's playing based on science" and all I have to do is figure what shot to hit, IMO the game would be ruined. I have no right to speak for the founders, but the reason golf is so great for me is that I do have to determine for myself how far to hit a shot. When someone or something else does that for me, it's not the same.

[goblue107501]

My bet still stands. Come to my home course with your GPS and I'll get my yardages just as fast and accurate as you do on average. I've used every modern yardage-finding device and I don't think that any speed up play. I'm sure anyone can think of one or two examples of where it sped up play, but I can think of examples of where it slows play. And I know my yardage is right. I don't just think or guess that it's right. I'm almost always +/-1 or 2 yards to the pin when compared to a laser (

I said in one of my other posts here, that until a course provides accurate yardages, a yardage book, and a pin sheet, it is all a guess. If I had all of this I would be fine pacing off distances. I did it in the past, and I can do it again. I have never seen a course that provides a daily pin sheet. If that is what your course provides, good for you.

Anyone can do the things you mentioned at a home course that is played over and over. The course I grew up on I played so many times I knew all the distances. Heck, I could tell you how a putt breaks after I saw the ball land on the green. What do you do if you play a different course when you don't know what all the markers say and don't have a pin sheet? Are you just going to guess? Step out of your 'home course' box for a minute and look at it from the side of playing a new course, or at least a course that you haven't played hundreds of times. The course doesn't have a yardage book and there is no pin sheet. The ball is in the left rough in the middle of the series of mounds, green is slightly elevated and you can't see the bottom of the flag. What is going to be faster and more accurate, giving a GPS a few seconds to load or pulling out a laser, or wandering around trying to figure out where the markers are? I'm going to pull out my laser and get an exact distance in about 10 seconds. You are going to be guessing.

[iacas]

I'm just as fast on average (sometimes slower and sometimes faster).

As a laser? Nope, not buying it. No point in repeating it, though: I'm not wasting my time to take you up on your bet, so you can't prove it anyway. That kind of argument simply makes you look immature. You know nobody's gonna take you up on it.

And what do you do when you're not caddying on your home course? Just guess at the yardage? Search for sprinkler heads? Again, a laser's gonna be faster and more accurate. Kinda forgetting about that stuff huh?

If lasers are faster (on average) than I am, I won't have a job much longer (or my pay will go down).

A yardage is only a small part of what a caddie provides, and frankly, I don't care how any caddie I've got gets his yardages. In fact, I might appreciate one that had a laser - he wouldn't have to wander off to find a sprinkler head and I know it'd be more accurate.

Your responsibility as a caddie goes way, way, way beyond "what's the yardage?" So, for that matter, does the game of golf.

More thinking is good.

Math (and I'm good at math, don't get me wrong) isn't the kind of thinking that really matters on a golf course. The ability to properly judge what the rules declare is a common and public knowledge is not something that matters on a golf course.

As FourPutt said, you've still gotta hit the shot, and using a laser to get a yardage doesn't turn off the thinking process. There's a big, big difference between "thinking to get the yardage" and "thinking about how to play the shot." Why spend more time just trying to get a number? That's not the "thinking" that gets a better score. Plus, if you're so fast - as fast and as accurate as a laser, according to you, then clearly there's not a whole lot of thought going into it. And knock off the bullcrap about the founders. You have no more idea what they'd want than the rest of us.

After all, golf is probably more mental than physical and if you start taking mental parts away from it, it becomes more physical...that's probably not how the founders wanted the game to be played.

Tiger Woods would like to have a word with you. Jack Nicklaus too. They'll tell you that "figuring out a yardage" has nothing - repeat

nothing - to do with the "mental side of the game."

That's just insulting to me.

You find facts insulting?

I have pride in what I do and I'll be damned if lasers or GPS's are better than me.

Reality called... they'd like to speak with you. A laser is better than you. Call it "my opinion" if that helps you sleep better, but I'm going to go with "fact."

And the game is very much about thinking then making a decision based on knowledge that you have.

And yardage is public knowledge. Again, you seem to think that "finding a yardage" is part of the mental game of golf. It's not. It's not even close.

Maybe I'm more concerned with where it all stops.

Yardage has, for decades and decades, been public knowledge. Wind speed has never been legal, humidity indeces have never been legal, etc.

Your argument is full of gaping holes.

Wind calculators, humidity indeces, etc. will be made for golf and if they will be legal or not has yet to be seen (they don't have the same popularity as GPS's or lasers yet).

They're not legal. Knowing the yardage has been legal since loooooooooooong before GPS or lasers came around.

Like I said: gaping holes.

[iacas]

If I had all of this I would be fine pacing off distances. Anyone can do the things you mentioned at a home course that is played over and over. The course I grew up on I played so many times I knew all the distances. What do you do if you play a different course when you don't know what all the markers say and don't have a pin sheet? Step out of your 'home course' box for a minute and look at it from the side of playing a new course, or at least a course that you haven't played hundreds of times. I'm going to pull out my laser and get an exact distance in about 10 seconds. You are going to be guessing.

I'd also like to say "ditto" to goblue's comments. I've quoted the best/relevant portions above.

[Phil McGleno]

denver_nuggs, some others might not have the balls to say it but I will: you're a terrible caddie if you think the yardage matters so much that a GPS or a laser threaten your job or even threaten a significant portion of your role and function.

[Fourputt]

Nuggs is a course caddie, so it's natural that he knows his course intimately. Most of us do not have the luxury of spending that much time learning a course. But he is erroneously equating his experience to that of the general public, and that's where he goes off track. I've been playing my home course for more than 25 years, yet I still hit the ball in places where my judgment and experience can easily miss the yardage by 10 yards or more. In those situations, I'm either doing a lot of guessing and wasting a lot of time looking for reference points, or I'm using the available technology to save time and pain.

I can take mister Nuggs out on a course where neither if us has ever been, and I can guarantee him that my laser will get consistently better and faster results than his eyeballing and pacing and guesstimating. That is even more true if it's a course that requires cart use, as most of the mountain courses out here do.

[iacas]

I can take mister Nuggs out on a course where neither if us has ever been, and I can guarantee him that my laser will get consistently better and faster results than his eyeballing and pacing and guesstimating. That is even more true if it's a course that requires cart use, as most of the mountain courses out here do.

Yes, and your post ends nuggs' participation in this thread.

[DavidFehertysBike]

Why do you (and several others here) seem to believe that the fact that I get my yardages by a laser and you get them pacing and calculating somehow makes me more mechanical than you are? Do you really think that just because I shoot an object with my Bushnell that I subsequently turn off my brain? That all of a sudden I'm insensitive to the wind? That I can't see the hill in front of me? That I'll now totally ignore the fact that my ball is on a downhill lie?

Little touchy, arent we? I think youre being ridiculous, because you and others i see use these things get these yardages, and even if you do make a plan (as you say) you most likley never hit it to that area anyway. It seems silly to me when i see a player laze up a target and then just duff it 100 feet. Just play the game.

[iWALK18]

Little touchy, arent we? I think youre being ridiculous, because you and others i see use these things get these yardages, and even if you do make a plan (as you say) you most likley never hit it to that area anyway. It seems silly to me when i see a player laze up a target and then just duff it 100 feet. Just play the game.

Right... I would MUCH rather see a player pace off yardages and then duff it... and we all know that if you don't hit every shot perfectly, then you shouldn't be trying your best to do so...

What is your point?

[DavidFehertysBike]

Right... I would MUCH rather see a player pace off yardages and then duff it... and we all know that if you don't hit every shot perfectly, then you shouldn't be trying your best to do so...

I mean if you cant reasonably play with that knowledge, then whats the point? Just play and dont worry about that crap. Sometime last year i think, this dude had a rangefinder and was trying to get yardages to fairway bunkers and doglegs, and he couldnt drive the ball more than 220...give me a break.

[SubPar]

And the game is very much about thinking then making a decision based on knowledge that you have. And GPS's and lasers take away from that. It's one less thing you have to worry about mentally. And obviously that makes the game easier, but it also makes it more physical IMO. Again, I don't think that's the nature of the game. Maybe I'm more concerned with where it all stops. Wind calculators, humidity indeces, etc. will be made for golf and if they will be legal or not has yet to be seen (they don't have the same popularity as GPS's or lasers yet). If golf becomes, "Here's what it's playing based on science" and all I have to do is figure what shot to hit, IMO the game would be ruined. I have no right to speak for the founders, but the reason golf is so great for me is that I do have to determine for myself how far to hit a shot. When someone or something else does that for me, it's not the same.

Well, you can take the time to walk off 106 yards or use a range finder. Either way you have the same info, but one takes a lot more time to get the same result.

I prefer my calculator over a slide-rule, e-mail over snail mail, and my car over an ox cart. Just because they didn't have this stuff 200 years ago does not mean they would not have used it if they did. Times change. Every sport has seen improvements in technology. I'm sure some "purist" was telling Johannes Gutenberg around 1450 that his printing press was an abomination and that words were meant to be carved on stone tablets the way the first writers did it. SubPar

[iWALK18]

That's just insulting to me. My bet still stands if there are any takers. I usually have yardages either before or just as I step up to my ball with my bag on my shoulder, and I don't think anything can beat that in terms of speed. But, speed really doesn't matter in this debate.

I would hate to insult the way you do your job, but there is a zero percent chance that you are more accurate at getting yardages to a visible pin than someone using a properly configured laser. You shouldn't find this insulting... I mean I know a calculator is more accurate and faster than I am at arithmetic, and there is no reason to get bent out of shape about it.

There are so many things a good caddy can do for a golfer, which lasers can't do. Everyone who is for lasers would readily admit this. Also, riddle me this: if all a caddy does is give perfect, accurate yardages to the golfer, shouldn't those people who are anti GPS/Laser be anti-caddy for the same reasons? To take it further, consider the fact that a good caddy gives more than just yardages...

[Fourputt]

I mean if you cant reasonably play with that knowledge, then whats the point? Just play and dont worry about that crap. Sometime last year i think, this dude had a rangefinder and was trying to get yardages to fairway bunkers and doglegs, and he couldnt drive the ball more than 220...give me a break.

My point is... Why do you even care? I'm playing faster than most of the people I play with, whether they use electronics, pace or just wing it. How can it possibly bother you that I choose to minimize my chances for error when it can't possibly have even the remotest effect on your game? I'm doing nothing to harm you or to impact the way you play the game. Unless you are worried that it might somehow give me a slight advantage over you...

And no, I'm not the least bit touchy about the subject. In fact, with all of this protesting, I'd say that it's the detractors that seem to be touchy about it.

[enduro]

And no, I'm not the least bit touchy about the subject. In fact, with all of this protesting, I'd say that it's the detractors that seem to be touchy about it.

they're called trolls. This entire thread is one large trolling from many facets.