I tried to call a penalty today...

[Fat Slice]

I knew someone would think I was in the wrong

You can count on TST for that every time!

[Leftygolfer]

Did you win the match???

That is why I think you were wrong.

[enduro]

Did you win the match???

He did win the match if the rules were followed. Why do you think it was a small thing that was unimportant? The USGA believes it is a serious enough offense to warrant a 2-stroke penalty or loss of hole in match play.

He shouldn't have even had to call the clubhouse as the other player was wrong. Why is he the one that was wrong here? Why do you think it cost him the match? If anything it sounds like he played about as he should since it was handicapped and ended up being a very close match. He was right in what he did and called the clubhouse for verification. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Leftygolfer]

He did win the match if the rules were followed. Why do you think it was a small thing that was unimportant? The USGA believes it is a serious enough offense to warrant a 2-stroke penalty or loss of hole in match play.

I believe that event had nothing to do with him selecting the right club on that tee.

I just think the situation had to have gotten him out of the match mentally. He didn't get the answer he wanted and I am SURE he was pissed. I would have been. I know I am not "right" because I don't think I would have even noticed or cared. I am saying what I would have done and if I am wrong because I believe he should have said nothing and let his play be the decider, then so be it. Jay, how did you play after this? You said he hit two in the hazards post situation and you still didn't win? Did you play to your potential?

[Cussin hacker]

I've reread this and think you were correct in calling the penalty, but I have to ask, why not wait till the round is over to discuss the issue. Calling the clubhouse in the middle of your round seems a little over the top to me. I'd guess the guy you talked to thought the same thing.

[cody west]

late time i played in a tournament i asked a kid what he hit and he said he couldnt say before he hit, so he hit then turned 2 me and said that he hit a 4 iron. i asked why he told me and he said i couldnt say before i hit but after its ok.
idk the rule but that was my experience

[Fat Slice]

I think the thing to do would be to say: "That's a rule violation that results in a stroke penalty and/or loss of match play hole (whatever the penalty is). Would you like to call the penalty on yourself now?" If he says no, or argues the point, I'd continue under protest and just wait until the end of the round and bring it up. For that reason, I'd play out the 18 regardless if someone thought they won before the end of the round to accommodate any ruling that comes down the line. I would, however, forget about it and play my game. Calling the clubhouse and getting a negative result was risky, because you'll feel cheated and distracted during the round (possibly).

[Jay-Bird]

You didn't tell us the context of the match. No I am not saying you should just let him do as he wishes. I just think calling the club house in the middle of the match contributed to you losing your match. I am sure you were steamed at that point and didn't play to your potential. Letting that get to you didn't help you win the match. The only thing him asking his partner what club he hit was make you play worse golf.

Not at all. I called to get it resolved before we hit our next tee shot - otherwise, no claim to be made. And since we're our own referees and we disagreed, I had to get a decision.

I actually finished strong, I was down 2 with 6 to play and had to give him strokes on 4 of the remaining 6 holes, and still finished tied. If we'd been all square after 3 I would've closed him out after hole 8. I'm NOT going to appeal for the win. It's NOT my opponent's fault that the PRO doesn't know the rules.

[Jay-Bird]

I've reread this and think you were correct in calling the penalty, but I have to ask, why not wait till the round is over to discuss the issue. Calling the clubhouse in the middle of your round seems a little over the top to me. I'd guess the guy you talked to thought the same thing.

This is turning into a rules seminar...

I called because: You have to have a claim in before you hit your next tee shot in a MATCH. RULE 2-5

Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and Claims In match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay. The Committee may consider a claim only if the player making the claim notifies his opponent (i) that he is making a claim, (ii) of the facts of the situation and (iii) that he wants a ruling. The claim must be made before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green.

I realize I could have waited, per the "if no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay" line, but I wanted to know where the match stood. We only had 9 holes total. I couldn't wait until the turn...

[Parker0065]

I think the thing to do would be to say: "That's a rule violation that results in a stroke penalty and/or loss of match play hole (whatever the penalty is). Would you like to call the penalty on yourself now?" If he says no, or argues the point, I'd continue under protest and just wait until the end of the round and bring it up. For that reason, I'd play out the 18 regardless if someone thought they won before the end of the round to accommodate any ruling that comes down the line. I would, however, forget about it and play my game. Calling the clubhouse and getting a negative result was risky, because you'll feel cheated and distracted during the round (possibly).

I agree, that is exactly how I would have handled it! I would have marked my scorecard with him losing that hole and told him we will settle it after the match. And oh yes, I would have called him big time for grounding his club in the hazard! It's the Club Championship, you have to make the call on all rule violations, not just the ones that seem the worst to you. Either the guy was a big cheater or extremely ignorant to the rules of golf. But to be honest it sounds like the whole advice issue may have thrown you off your game. You can't let that happen, just inform your opponent of each infraction and mark your card accordingly. At the end of the round take in your card along with a USGA rule book and explain your case. Another thing is if your in a match like that, I would advise you continue to play the match as if he won the hole and you need to catch up. Make the effort to beat them with your clubs, not the rule book. Chalk this up to experience and hopefully you will handle it with the least effect on your own game next time. Don't be afraid to call your opponent on any and all infractions! It's the duty of all honest golfers to educate the ignorant!

[Cussin hacker]

This is turning into a rules seminar...

Per the rules you could have waited till the match was over. It wasn't a PGA match that has officials ready and waiting. What if you didn't have a cell phone? Would you have stopped play and walked to the clubhouse to report it? You were correct on the rule, but a cell phone call was not needed.

[Pat007]

[QUOTE=Jay-Bird;369727]I did disregard his grounding of his club inside the boundary of a hazard (which he did on the 7th - which we pushed) (and on the playoff hole - which I lost), simply because I figured by that point he was just ignorant to the rules of golf.

You could have been hit with rule 1.3 at this point in time. You were both in agreement to waive the rules, and should have been disqualified. If I was playing in a stroke play tournament and this was brought to my attention, I would have been pissed at you for letting him slide. Why would you stickle on some rules and not on others? Why not abide by ALL rules? Or did you not know that was a rule? When I compete, I always have a rules book in my bag with me at all times. Did you?

I had a caddie once, that, after us realizing that the competitor I was paired with was checing my clubs, put a towel over hem on the bag. When the clubs were covered, he was still trying to see my clubs. On a tee shot on a par 3, I hit a 7 iron and my caddy who was experienced said to me: " Wow, you nuked that 4 iron!" The other guy's tee shot went about 35 yards over the green. Trust me, he got the message very quick....

[Jay-Bird]

I agree, that is exactly how I would have handled it! I would have marked my scorecard with him losing that hole and told him we will settle it after the match. And oh yes, I would have called him big time for grounding his club in the hazard! It's the Club Championship, you have to make the call on all rule violations, not just the ones that seem the worst to you. Either the guy was a big cheater or extremely ignorant to the rules of golf.

Well said. The thing is, many high-handicappers play their casual rounds without knowing the rules, without caring to know rules, and therefore they don't play by the rules. They bring the same mentality to league days, and assuredly don't play by the letter on those days.

On the 'grounding in a hazard' issue - this again is where the no-rules golfers play out from red staked areas and ground their club every time they play. I had a shot on the 8th hole where I was inside the red stakes, in the weeds. I was ultra cautious in not grounding the club, but still hitting a very short pitch. My opponent and his buddy discussed my shot afterward and wondered why I played it without grounding my club. I mentioned then that grounding the club in a marked hazard is a penalty. They had NO IDEA! Fact is, I'm done with the league at this course. I will find one next season where they play GOLF. I can recall many, many instances this year when someone I've been playing with has cheated, or violated a rule. including... Hit Titleist in play Maxfli out, make par lift clean and replace "It's in the fairway put it on the good grass" stomp down grass behind the ball to improve the lie tap down spike marks in putting line knock leaves off trees in practice swings hit range balls from the fairway during the middle of a hole Countless stroke and distance violations (It's a muni )

[Jay-Bird]

You could have been hit with rule 1.3 at this point in time. You were both in agreement to waive the rules, and should have been disqualified. If I was playing in a stroke play tournament and this was brought to my attention, I would have been pissed at you for letting him slide. Why would you stickle on some rules and not on others? Why not abide by ALL rules? Or did you not know that was a rule? When I compete, I always have a rules book in my bag with me at all times. Did you?

and your caddy giving wrong information on the club should've had YOU penalized.

RULE 8-1/9 Misleading Statement About Club Selection Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling? A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

[MiniMoe]

When you are playing, it is a rules violation to ask about or offer and any information other than distance, and general course knowledge (like if the hole is a dogleg right, or a par 4). Talking about your own shot is different than turning to your opponent and saying directly to him that you hit a 6 iron. It is also OK to look inside your opponents bag as long as you don't do anything so you can see better. If they are covered with a towel, you can't move it. You can bend down and look at the clubs he has in his hands.


When you finished the hole where he asked for the info. All you had to do is say "You can't ask for information from anyone other than your caddy, the penalty for that in match play is loss of hole. I'm claiming this hole because of the rule violation." If he disagrees, which he did, you then say, "We will continue the match and get a ruling when we finish." I would have said the same kind of thing after the holes he grounded the club on.

In match play, you can also disregard a rules violation on a case by case basis, meaning you can't agree to it before the match begins. So after he asked for the info, you could have also said, "Asking for advice from anyone other than a caddy is a rules violation with the penalty being loss of hole in match play. I'll overlook it this time, but don't let it happen again." That way you look like the good guy by teaching him the rules in a gracious manner.

P.S. Your pro is not very smart. Once he gave me that ruling, I would have asked him to call the USGA to make sure the ruling was correct. Put him on the spot and make him feel like an idiot for not knowing such a basic rule. I know everyone has a bad day once in a while, but that is ridiculous

[sacm3bill]

In match play, you can also disregard a rules violation on a case by case basis, meaning you can't agree to it before the match begins.

That's not correct.

Rule 1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules: Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred. You may be thinking of conceding holes or putts, which must be done on a shot by shot basis and cannot be agreed to in advance.

[Jay-Bird]

The part I bolded would make that a violation of Rule 1-3 Agreement to waive rules (key word AGREEMENT).

What I did, by NOT penalizing my opponent for his grounding the club in a hazard did NOT violate 1-3, because he was unaware that he committed a violation. Therefore we did not AGREE to waive the rule. Agreement is between two people.

[Jay-Bird]

I believe that event had nothing to do with him selecting the right club on that tee.

Wrong. My opponent and the guy he asked played together every league day. He was certainly seeking advice.

I just think the situation had to have gotten him out of the match mentally. He didn't get the answer he wanted and I am SURE he was pissed. I would have been.

I was pissed, but I played fine afterward. I was pissed because I was 2 down instead of rightfully All Square.

Jay, how did you play after this? You said he hit two in the hazards post situation and you still didn't win? Did you play to your potential?

Actually, I won hole 4, I birdied hole 5 (push w/ stroke), made par 6 (push straight up), bogeyed 7 (he doubled - push w/stroke), Won 8 with bogey (I'm in hazard, he's in water)(he tripled) and made par on 9 (push with stroke).

His hazard club groundings were on #7 - we pushed. And on the playoff hole (I made bogey, he made bogey and won with his stroke). Where it occurred on both #7 and the playoff hole was NOT marked . It had been most of the year - spray painted RED line, but we've had so much rain they mow all the time - :sarcasm: and my favorite PGA pro is such a hard worker that he had it in his work ethic to get out there and clearly define the course's hazards, as any good Committee head would. :sarcasm: (He got a stroke on 7,8,9 and playoff 1)