Handicaped Tournaments

[Parker0065]

I'm looking for some feedback on this situation. If it sounds like I'm whining,,,lol,,I'll take it like a man, but I'm a little hot right now.

Basically I had a match today with a 13 handicap and had to give him 10 strokes. The match was a complete blowout. The guy shot 10 shots under his handicap and smoked me,,lol! I had to shoot something close to a 67 or lower to even hang in the match. If I could do that I wouldn't be sitting here writing this.

Anyways, whats done is done, but I'll ask you guy's, does it sound realistic for a 13 handicap to shoot a 74-75 out of the blue? What does a 13 handicap normally shoot? I would think they would be maybe a career best 78 or 79 with a average score of somewhere in the mid 80's?

The guy said he's had a few other rounds this summer like that(and I'm thinking, did you post those scores,,,lol)!

So the big question is, does this sound a bit like sandbag-ery or am I just whining? I'll appreciate any and all feedback!


Either way one thing is for sure, I am completely done with ANY and ALL handicapped tournaments! I'm sticking to purely County and State events with no handicaps!

[jaragon126]

Sounds very fishy to me.

As you also mentioned, make sure he is posting those scores.

I played in a match a few years ago in my league, and both of us played pretty well that day. The match went down to the wire, and he ended up winning the last hole to beat me. I shot a 74 (yes, this was several years ago when I was playing much better and was a much lower handicap), and he shot a 73.

He wasn't a sandbagger by ANY means.

Anyway, I was chatting with our golf league president about how close the match was & mentioned our scores. A couple of weeks later, the league president noticed my opponent hadn't posted his 73 yet. So our league president posted that score for the guy TWICE.

Yes, that was a pretty harsh deal, and I felt bad because it wasn't like I was trying to tattle on the guy. I was just having a conversation with the president & I just mentioned our scores in passing.

But, handicaps are no good unless they are posted truthfully & honestly.

I'm not sure if your situation was in a league in which you'll see your opponent again, or if it was a one time deal where you'll never have to see him again.

For what it's worth, in our league we never have to play anyone that's more than say 3-4 strokes different than ourself. Our league does a great job of putting people in proper flights based on handicaps. Why on earth you were playing with someone with such a big difference in handicaps pretty much blows.

I am a 10.5 handicap and my rounds since May 2009 have been:
84, 84, 85, 86, 81, 81, 79, 88, 85, 85, 87, 86, 86, 79, 82, 82, 89, 89, 87, 83

So I've only broken 80 twice, and was nowhere near the low 70s.

Does it sound realistic for the guy to shoot that low ... I say no. Could it happen ... maybe.

Maybe it's worth following up with the league committee to make sure he posted his score. Handicap events are tough, because there ARE going to be sandbaggers out there. That's part of the beauty of being able to play scratch golf ... no more handicaps to consider!

[Fat Slice]

Unless you really know the guy and know when he plays, what he shoots, and if he records all his rounds, it's impossible to know if he's sandbagging.

Here's an example. I played my golf buddy and usual golf partner in the first round of match play this year. He had a CH of 3 and I had 22, so I got a stroke per hole and another one on the #1 handicap hole. The course plays really flat and is super wide and there is no rough that's deep so it's tailor-made for me. I get into trouble on drives and hitting out of rough or from sloped lies. He shot under par and I shot an 81 and knocked him off. He was pissed, but he has played at least one round a week with me for 3 years so he knows how I play and knows I record all my scores. I just had a great round and he paid the price. It's rare, but it happens! The next match play I barely won, shooting a 102. The round after that I clobbered the guy by shooting a 39 on the front 9. He was down 6 after 6 holes. The final round was very close, I ended up winning 2 and 1 and shot a 95 or something like that. So a rare good round *can* happen if the course is kind and doesn't punish the high-handicapper's faults.

[sean_miller]

I'm looking for some feedback on this situation. If it sounds like I'm whining,,,lol,,I'll take it like a man, but I'm a little hot right now.

It's hard to imagine these days. Back in the old days (before there were slope ratings) it was possible for someone to have a mid-high hadicap on a really tough and shoot low 70s on an easy course. In 2009, I think there's some sandbagging involved.

[Jay-Bird]

I saw a 14 handicap shoot 33 on the front - to destroy his opponent in a 9 hole handicap match.
A 14 HC shooting a 33 - that's a net (ten under) 26. It happens, I suppose.

[Parker0065]

Sounds very fishy to me.

The match was in our club championship and I have only played one other time with this guy 3 years ago and he was a solid 8 at that time. Basically this year he stated that he wasn't playing very well and that's why his handicap went up. I can understand that somebody can get hot and have the round of thier lives. I would have just accepted it as the guy was playing the round of his life, but when the match was over he said he had lucked out and had a few good rounds like that this summer in some of his other matches ,,,,,,Oops, you probably shouldn't have told me that because your handicap was 13 in June and you fired off a few 75's since then and your still a 13,,,,lol! Anythings possible but can you set it up any more obvious? Save your real game for the matches but keep posting your 85's for your handicap. But more than anything I really blame our club for thier poor supervision of handicaps. They don't update everyones handicap after/before each match, it's kind of rediculous. Heck, after I shot my low round for the year(69) I made sure they lowered my handicap for the remaining matches because I didn't want anyone coming back to say I was sandbagging,,,lol. As I stated before, it doesn't matter because I am done with any competition that is handicaped! I don't mind getting beat straight up playing from the back tees. Funny thing is this is only the second handicaped event I've ever played in 35 years of golf. Up until the last couple years all my tournament experience was pure medal play with no handicaping. I think it's time to get back to that. I'm going to try to qualify for the State Open and Mid-Am next year. Gives me something to work towards this off season!

[andyh]

This bugs me too. I play in regular sunday tournaments, stapleford, and you have to shoot 42-43 points to win it. A high handicapper will always come in with a ridiculous score. A really good day for me, shooting around 74 or 75 gets me about 37-38 points. It annoys me but I love the competition.

I thought you were only supposed to shoot your handicap once every four rounds and certainly not 6 strokes under.

I once played in a tourny and shot 73 (1 over), 5 strokes clear of the field. Finished second to a 36 handicapper who shoots 43 stapleford points. I just can't see this hapening in a tournament situation if you are genuine about your handicap.

Although I do know that if you are on the cusp of a breakthrough you can shoot well below your handicap. I played in another tourny with a guy who shoots a 70 (1 under) on a course with a 73.9 rating. He had a 10 handicap but was improving so fast (young guy) that I could see it was possible, although I was still very surprised. But the guy I played with, a 1 handicapper, who shot 77 both days was well p****d.

I cannot really compete with the higher handicaps in the stapleford tournaments. Unless the tournys are on the longer blue tees, but we always play off whites.

[deronsizemore]

I don't know all the stats and odds of a certain handicap shooting a certain score, but a handicap is there as an indicator of potential, not an average score. With that said, a person typically will shoot their handicap LESS than 25% of the time, so I'm calling BS.

[Parker0065]

This bugs me too. I play in regular sunday tournaments, stapleford, and you have to shoot 42-43 points to win it. A high handicapper will always come in with a ridiculous score. A really good day for me, shooting around 74 or 75 gets me about 37-38 points. It annoys me but I love the competition.

As a low handicaper,,,I can definitely feel your pain! The handicap system is not perfect by any means but if players post all thier scores then it would help increase the accuracy of the system. I agree it can be tough to gage when someone is sandbagging or if thier, as we use to say on our golf team "Career-ing It Today"! Unfortunately, sometimes those "Career Scores" don't get posted for handicap. As far as playing from the whites for club championships and other events, that's a whole other thread I could start on that subject,,lol! I even had our club pro fighting to have the Club Championship played from the blues, but the owner would not go for it. They were afraid they would lose membership because it would eliminate about 90% of the members from having a realistic chance! We have a couple holes that if you can't hit it 280 and dead straight you might run out of balls,,lol!

[Parker0065]

I don't know all the stats and odds of a certain handicap shooting a certain score, but a handicap is there as an indicator of potential, not an average score. With that said, a person typically will shoot their handicap LESS than 25% of the time, so I'm calling BS.

Didn't Dave Pelz, or somebody put together the data of what the odds were for handicaps versus low scores? Maybe I can find it on Google!

Edit: I think I found it, sorry can't get it to line up when I paste it into the text. If I'm reading this right the odds of a 13 handicap shooting 10 shots under thier handicap are 37,000 to 1! Since my opponent stated he accomplished this 3 or 4 times this summer I think he should be buying some lottery tickets with that kind of luck,,,lol! Odds Table Handicap Index Ranges Net Diff0-56-1213-2122-30>30 05/15/16/15/15/1 -110/110/110/18/17/1 -223/122/121/113/110/1 -357/151/143/123/115/1 -4151/1121/187/140/122/1 -5379/1276/1174/172/135/1 -6790/1536/1323/1130/160/1 -72349/11200/1552/1229/1101/1 -820111/14467/11138/1382/1185/1 -948219/127877/13577/1965/1359/1 -10125000/1 84300/1 37000/1 1650/1874/1

[deronsizemore]

Didn't Dave Pelz, or somebody put together the data of what the odds were for handicaps versus low scores? Maybe I can find it on Google!

Yeah, someone put together an odds sheet. I was just too lazy to try to find it.

[Parker0065]

Here's something else I found thats old but I thought was kind of funny. The USGA actually had a "Most Wanted" list of sandbaggers back in the 80's before they went to the slope rating I guess!



The 10 Most-Wanted SANDBAGGERS
Golf Digest, April, 1985, pages 105-106
The USGA's public enemies list, plus tips on how to spot a handicap cheater
by Ross Goodner
The U.S. Golf Association's crusade against sandbaggers has moved into a new and critical stage. Where once the USGA's weapons were no more powerful than a disapproving look, today's modern computer technology can identify the individual culprits and expose them to public scrutiny. The result: a lineup of public enemies that would make the FBI proud.

The list, which consists of 170 names, is made up of golfers whose scores in tournament competition are substantially--often ridiculously--lower than their scores in regular play. Exposure of sandbaggers will enable local associations to deal with them and, the USGA believes, will be a significant step toward giving everyone a correct handicap. Steps are already being taken by some states (see "It's Open Season on Sandbaggers," Golf Digest, May 1984). For example, Colorado assigns points to tournament winners, and lowers the handicaps of those who amass too great a total. Idaho lowers the handicap of anyone who averages four or more strokes below his handicap in tournaments. California takes a player's lowest handicap in the last 12 months and uses that in association events.

[Lefty-Golfer]

I can say that if used properly the system works. I play every Friday with the same foursome. We post all rounds. The low man is an 8 and top is a 15. We throw balls to pick partners. Just about every front 9 comes down to # 9 (I stroke there) and almost every match comes down to #18 (I also stroke there) but we are legit with post honest scores.

I have posted 49 rounds so far this year and I am a legit 12.5 Index…I did have one 79 and three rounds in the low 80’s but that is less then 10 percent of the posted rounds. Right now my card is sweet for my level of play. I am playing this weekend in our clubs fall outing if I play well I can make a bunch of money, as in a couple thousand. I have been on the range or chipping green 2 or 3 times a week for the last month getting ready.

My game is tight right now…does that mean if I go shoot an 80 I am sand bagging? I don’t believe so because I have posted an honest number every round I have played. I just happen to have been practicing more then playing lately.

[andyh]

I can say that if used properly the system works. I play every Friday with the same foursome. We post all rounds. The low man is an 8 and top is a 15. We throw balls to pick partners. Just about every front 9 comes down to # 9 (I stroke there) and almost every match comes down to #18 (I also stroke there) but we are legit with post honest scores.

Agreed that the system works if everyone is honest. Problem where I play is that players play with too high a handicap. If every week the stapleford winner is shooting 42/43 points then that is not correct in my opinion. Odds on that happening are too small. But I know for a fact that people don't hand in their cards. It's a shame but it has made me a lot more careful with who I play with for money.

As a low handicap player the weighting is heavily in favour of high handicappers in a handicap tourny. A high handicap player has a bigger spread of scores and has more chance of shooting 6 under his/her handicap than a low handicapper has.

[goblue107501]

Every dog has his day I guess. Sounds a little fishy, but you never know. My advise, that you already mentioned, stay away from handicap tournaments. I have always thought the whole system is pretty stupid. Me shooting a 76 and getting 'beat' by someone who shoots 86, just doesn't compute with me.

[Fourputt]

In this game and at that level, just about anything can happen. I've posted my own experience before. The first time I ever broke 80 I shot a one over par 73 with an honest 16 handicap. That was in a stroke play Club Championship. I've never shot that low again since then (74 is my lowest since that day), and that was 20 years ago.

I've carried anywhere from a 10 to a 13 most of the time since, but every now and then I get hot for a few holes. Just a month ago I shot a 76... I was -3 through 11, then went 7 over for the next 7 holes. The only thing about my game that is consistent is its inconsistency.

[Lefty-Golfer]

As a low handicap player the weighting is heavily in favour of high handicappers in a handicap tourny. A high handicap player has a bigger spread of scores and has more chance of shooting 6 under his/her handicap than a low handicapper has.

I agree on High HC having a bigger spread with the chance of going real low. I know at our club for events like the club champ, member guest, fall classic and so on they play 90 percent of HC. I will be be playing at as 13 to the course this weekend. I know some clubs play to 80 percent for these events. I am not really sure what is best.

Funny thing about posting scores. As a higher HC with my foursome I actually get forced into recording lower rounds. Example. I am on the green a tough par 4 in 3 shots. My short game is solid so say I am in makeable par range say less then 10'...one of my buddies makes a birdie, what comes next "pickem up" hole is over and post a 4 for the hole. same thing happens if I get in trouble off the T and have a bogey putt. If i am not stroking on the hole it is over...pickem up. I wish I made 60 percent of my 10 footers. I don't even have a problem with it due to the way match play is formatted but it certainly cuts at least a stroke or two from your score.

[ddalet]

I agree on High HC having a bigger spread with the chance of going real low. I know at our club for events like the club champ, member guest, fall classic and so on they play 90 percent of HC. I will be be playing at as 13 to the course this weekend. I know some clubs play to 80 percent for these events. I am not really sure what is best.

Personally, when I play in tournaments, I'm going for the gross champ.

However, I play in a lot of money scrambles... and unfortunately, unless you sandbag 3-4 strokes on your game, you are just giving your money away and will place last by a large margin. That is the only real sandbagging problem I've ever encountered.