Hip bump or hip turn? You be the judge..

[bunkerputt]

This is the part I don't get.

On the backswing hip pivot, the axis is an imaginary point roughly in the middle of the hips and in front of the lumbar spine. On the transition, the axis moves directly backwards so that a rotation towards the target pulls the left butt cheek against the line that the rear was on at address (the "tush" line). Then the axis changes again to the left femoral head. It's not a spot you move, but a spot you move around. It's difficult to explain, but it would probably be clear with an animation. I'll come up with one...

[DeanS]

You do and think whatever makes the golf swing work for you - I tend to see the arms then the club as the last things to move forward in the transition - as a couple of mid-cappers we probably have a lot to learn.

Ok, I will and will continue to do so, I'm swinging with much more confidence because of it. My stats are poor in the short game so thats where I need to learn and practice.

[amcquay]

There is an easy test. Set up and charge the back foot, keeping the shoulders turned, pull the club down a foot. See if you hips slide or see if you can keep your hips from sliding. The lower body is charged and wants to go so keeping from sliding is not as easy as it sounds.

I can move my arms around all day without my hips budging in that position. But, if my arms are tension free and relaxed as they should be, they'll drop into the slot on their own when the lower body makes its move.

Let's do a test similar to the one you've described. Take your backswing and stop at the top, or even halfway back. Now, just bump your left hip towards the target. If your arms are relaxed they should drop right in place.

[bunkerputt]

The following images show subsequently what I am talking about. You will notice that only rotational moves around an axis occurred and at no point was there a distinct, intentional lateral shifting of the hips.

[DeanS]

I can move my arms around all day without my hips budging in that position. But, if my arms are tension free and relaxed as they should be, they'll drop into the slot on their own when the lower body makes its move.

I don't know what else to say. I'll have to try all three the next time I'm at the range and then compare.

[bunkerputt]

I don't know what else to say. I'll have to try all three the next time I'm at the range and then compare.

DeanS,

Have you checked the amount of shoulder rotation and the corresponding amount of arm swing by video? More importantly, have you checked your amount of hip turn? One terminology note, you will hear a lot of people refer to a quantity of "arm swing", and others will refer, using The Golfing Machine terminology to "Power Accumulator #3" or PA#3. This basically means how much you have pulled your left arm across your chest. If you keep your hands pretty much in front of you at the top of the backswing, there is a small amount of arm swing, (small PA#3). But if it is completely squished against your chest, you have a large arm swing. Now, if you have a minimal shoulder turn, and a huge arm swing, you will have to start your arms before your shoulders to get them back in front of you, otherwise a shoulder turn would pull your arms over the top. I had this problem and traced it back to a lack of hip rotation in the backswing, which took the shoulders to about 70° instead of 90°. What I did from the 70° position was to compensate by pulling my left arm hard across my chest wall so that I could get the club back to parallel. I found for a while that if I started down with my arms, it brought my hands more in front of my shoulders, then I could turn through with my hips and shoulders and hit pretty good shots. If I didn't start with this move, I would swing over the top, hit pull-hooks and chunk every other shot. This is essentially a compensation to bring the arms and shoulders back in sync that could be eliminated by just pulling the arms across the chest a little bit, and turning the hips more. Then a hip turn could start the downswing without pulling the arms over the top. Otherwise a hip turn to start the downswing would pull the hands over the top. I think better players choose to keep the arms and shoulders in sync and turn with the hips because it is just difficult to time how much to bring the arms down before starting to rotate through with the hips. It sounds like you guys are talking about two sides of the same coin to me.

[bunkerputt]

A lot of threads have been running about how exactly the hips move in the golf swing. In particular, threads regarding the "sliding" of the hips and how to move in the transition. One thing I figured out when reading these that didn't seem to be highlighted was the assumption: If lateral motion is observed on video, the player must have intentionally moved the hips laterally at some point . This didn't quite jive with what I had read in several books regarding the rotation of the hips in the transition. Namely, that the swing is started by rotating the lower body towards the target. It also didn't seem to fit what I observed watching Tiger Woods lower body action on video. I mean, he is definitely rotating his hips, no question. And he also definitely moves laterally, no question. The question remained, however, when does the lateral motion occur? Most people would parrot the latest tip from Golf Digest and say it happens at the start with a "slight bump" followed by a turn. I think this advice is dead wrong. Particularly because it implies something that just doesn't happen, namely a distinct lateral motion and a moment when the lateral motion stops and the rotation begins. Now, regarding the previously stated assumption that lateral shift implies lateral motion, consider the following animated diagram I came up with to show how this assumption is false. It starts from the address position and shows a "through the spine" view of the hips:




Note the key point of the diagram: It is possible to accomplish a lateral shift by purely rotational motion . Now, I don't have any real evidence that my choices for the pivot points are accurate. But it does show what I think we are seeing in Tiger and others' swings: They don't seem to be sliding, but they are definitely shifting.

[Marinemike]

I think you hit it great. Perhaps those with the swing thoughts of "bump then turn" may actually be accomplishing the motion you describe but just think about it differently.

The only thing I take question with in your illustration is perhaps the pivot axis on the backswing isn't the center but more over the rear leg. This would get more weight onto the inside of the rear leg/foot when we keep the rear leg at the same solid angle while turning. After that the pivot axis moves to over top of the front leg which causes the rotational pivot/ lateral slide motion.

BTW, you have too much time on your hands. I would rep you, but apparently I've already given you too much according to vBulletin.

[sean_miller]

What happened to the epiphany thread - the one with the hip related eureka moment?



BTW - today is the first time I ever remember hearing of a "hip bump" in golf. At the 19th maybe, but not on the course during daylight hours.

[jambalaya]

I'm a bump and turn guy right now. I am trying to smooth it out but I do a definitive slide or bump forward with the hips and try to feel the weight on my front foot before I release the club for the downswing. The key is to not let the head move forward and the entire body slide.

[MiniMoe]

It may look like a lateral movement, but it is more the left knee moving toward the target than the hips. Tiger loses control when his hips spin too fast. There is a rotation of the hips, but it must be in sync with the arms.

[DeanS]

bunkerputt,

I have some older videos, IIRC I have a full shoulder turn and a full hip turn. My stance may be slightly narrow. However, you made the comment that the back leg needs to straighten slightly in the backswing which enables the pivot move backward during the downswing. I haven't been doing that. That got me to thinking that my transition pull might be taking up that slack. Again I have to check it out. Thx for all the comments.

[squaddie]

The following images show subsequently what I am talking about. You will notice that only rotational moves around an axis occurred and at no point was there a distinct, intentional lateral shifting of the hips....

Man, that's a great animation. I wanted to put something together similar to figure out the hip turn and pivot points, and have the shoulders overlaying the hips, but didn't have time the past few weeks.

[jambalaya]

I don't think you should really separate the left knee and hip movement. I think I can move my left knee a pretty good bit before my hip stars to move laterally but if I think about moving my hip the left knee seems to move more in unison. It currently works better for me to feel the weight going down the front leg to the inside of the front foot. When I feel that I really start to turn into the shot. I just have had a hard time establishing the pivot to the front for the forward swing. Whatever works to accomplish that is a key move.

[bunkerputt]

Man, that's a great animation. I wanted to put something together similar to figure out the hip turn and pivot points, and have the shoulders overlaying the hips, but didn't have time the past few weeks.

I thought it would be nice to see shoulders and feet in a somewhat faded form too so that the hip pivot would be highlighted, but couldn't think of any way to do it that wouldn't take a week. I remember seeing a 3d model of Hogan's swing on youtube and thinking how awesome it was for pointing out what's really going on. There weren't any legs, or clothing to distract visually. What would be super cool is if someone could take a birdseye view of a player and overlay a skeleton onto the video. That would be pretty enlightening.

[bunkerputt]

...I just have had a hard time establishing the pivot to the front for the forward swing. Whatever works to accomplish that is a key move.

That seems like the key issue for what's going on here, notably how exactly does the player post up on the left leg so that he (she) can rotate around it. Man, with all the complexity involved in weight transfer and pivots, sometimes I wonder if the golf swing wouldn't be better left-leg only ala a Gretzky slap shot.

[TN94z]

Define bump.. Maybe we are talking about the same thing..

Iacas described what I define as bump in the quote below.

That's a problem spot right there. The hips move six to twelve inches forward at this point as well. Otherwise there's no room for the club to drop into the slot and your weight stays back or at best in the middle instead of getting to your left side.

[bunkerputt]

Iacas described what I define as bump in the quote below.

That's fine. You've pointed out what happens, but not how it happens....as if I said, "Define slap", and the response was, "My cheek is red". We all know that there is an observed and very noticeable lateral movement of the hips in the downswing. There's certainly no question about that, whether it is 6 inches or not. The question that I am concerned with is the mechanism by which this shift happens. What I am even more curious about is whether people who think they are supposed to "bump" are intentionally trying to jut their hips in some direction toward the target like Elvis Presley on stage. I claim that any intentional lateral movement is misguided and that lateral motion can be accomplished by purely rotational means. But maybe by "bump" someone really means the same thing I am talking about. That was what I meant by "Define bump". I'm curious if you believe that there is an intentional lateral slide, regardless of how little, toward the target at the top of the backswing.