Are high handicappers losers?

[zeg]

Yes. If your handicap is greater than 20, you are unequivocally a total loser and no one should listen to a word you say.

[O.B. Right]

Your brother sounds like a beginner

He actually belongs in a 3rd category - "Once or twice a year golfer."

He might not really lose 19 out of 20 tee shots but he certainly will only hit 1 out of 20 nice and far and reasonably playable as a second shot. I will say that we played 18 holes on Sunday and he lost 12 balls. I should have read your post better because, hilariously, he does have persimmon woods. Well . .he only has 1 wood but it's persimmon or some other wood looking material. His bag is hilarious and deserves a post of it's own . . .half of his irons he got for $2 a piece at a thrift shop. The other half are random clubs of different brands including 2 five irons and a left-handed 7 iron. He didn't use the 7 iron but it was in his bag on Sunday for some reason.

[iacas]

Comments that a high handicapper may be lying if he says they can hit a ball a long way.

Because, on average, they can't. Hitting the ball a long way not only requires good athleticism (which you can have without being a low handicapper), but good technique, which is missing in high handicappers. To hit a 6-iron a long way, or a driver, or any club, you have to do a lot of things right in order to a) get good contact, b) achieve maximum speed at the correct moment, c) do the previous two things

consistently . The simple truth is that the average golfer could probably shave a stroke or two per round if they were honest with themselves about their distances. The lower handicapper has likely learned this lesson, and so it's not only frustrating to see a bunch of people BSing each other, it's frustrating to see a bunch of people BSing themselves.

Comments that high handicappers should play short tees because they must be slowing the pace of play from regular tees.

They'd probably enjoy the game more. They'd lose less golf balls because they'd have less to carry.

I think you can play quickly and shoot any score, but the simple logic is that if you take 45 seconds for every shot, the guy shooting 110 will take longer to play than the guy shooting 75. And even if the higher handicapper takes only 35 seconds, he'll probably make that ten seconds up - and then some - switching clubs more frequently, traveling greater distances as he zig-zags up the fairway, hitting extra provisionals, etc.

Or that a high handicapper should be working on their game to develop a lower index.

Why's that a horrible thing to say? They'd probably enjoy golf a little more if it weren't quite so random an occurrence of events that occasionally resulted in a good shot.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people capable of hitting a ball a long distance and not putting together a low scoring round.

There aren't. Unless by "a lot" you mean, say, 1000... which is a lot, but which is a very small percentage of golfers.

It seems to me that the pace of play is more affected by losing balls than taking three tries to chip a ball 15 yards.

And a higher handicapper playing tees that are too long for him will lose more golf balls than a higher handicapper playing the proper tees.

I honestly couldn't care less what tees a person plays as long as they keep pace.

Ditto.

[gooch43]

I'm a 15 handicap and a loser. I can hit my drives far and my irons are long. I can 3 putt from 3 feet. Being a loser has nothing to do with how I play golf.

[lefty.drew]

Driving distances basically fall in line with every other pissing-contest subject.

If a guy says he can bench 320, it's probably 250.
If he says he can drink 15 beers and not catch a buzz, he's lights out after 12.

There is a macho stigma to how far you can hit a golf ball, so the average person will probably pump their's up a bit.

I definetaly understand taking anyone's self-proclaimed driving average with a grain of salt. Even my own ;)

[sean_miller]

He actually belongs in a 3rd category - "Once or twice a year golfer."

Persimmon is definitely not the way to go unless you already have a rudimentary understanding of the golf swing. It's possible to start a persimmon driver over the left trees and end up in the lake on the right or star the ball over the lake on the right and end up OB on the left (been there - done that). If your brother is playing persimmon (or a laminated maple - whatever - something made of realwood) and he's trying to get 250 yds off the tee, tell him to visit a discount sports store and pick up whatever medium/stiff low torque shafted 3 wood he can get his hands on. He'll swing softer and hit more fairways (or maybe that's, "some fairways")

I'll hang onto my forged blade irons as long as I can get the ball in the air with them, but the only time I ever put a persimmon wood in the bag is when we're all playing them (for f-u-n) or if I'm playing a course I know really well that has a few 90 degree dog legs and I don't care how many balls I lose trying to bend them around the corner. I've hit some amazing shots with an old [Jackie?] Burke 4 wood. I played a Powerbilt driver and MacGregor 3 wood for a couple rounds this year while my driver and 3 wood were in the shop. I didn't hit one straight shot with either of them - I played for a draw or fade and just hoped I didn't overdo it. Unfortunately I did a few times. When my "modern" clubs were back in the bag it was a relief.

[Chief Broom]

Comments that high handicappers should play short tees because they must be slowing the pace of play from regular tees.

I agree with iacas. Playing from the right tees goes a long way in making the game more enjoyable. And yet I see guys all the time struggling and never making the connection between the tees they insist on playing and their poor performance. The "tradition" runs deep that men can only play the longer tees.

A rule of thmub I believe I read here is that you should be able to regularly break 90 from a particular set of tees. That if you aren't capable of breaking 90 and there are shorter tees you should move forward. This makes sense to me because then you are using the course to your advantage and aiding yourself in improving your game. You don't learn much about golf constantly having to hack the ball out of trouble and hopefully back into play. But keeping the ball in play and giving yourself the opportunity to score begins to ingrain proper habits (and memories of being successful). Being able to play out of the woods is great but being able to capitalize on a decent drive is the stuff good scores will eventually be made of. I read a while back in Golf digest that the number one reason people quit playing or take an extended lay off from playing is that they put in the time playing and practicing but still don't get any better. We all know that golf can be an incredibly frustrating game and a lot of golfers are effectively setting themselves up for failure by taking the forward tees out of their equation.

[zrlaegel]

well.... yes and no. i have a friend who can whack it well past 300 yrds when he does, it goes way left. so you can bet if they arent at least a low handicap they prolly arent tellin people where the ball ends up at that distance. and honestly unless you compete your handicap doesnt matter as long as you are havin fun.

[O.B. Right]

Persimmon is definitely not the way to go unless you already have a rudimentary understanding of the golf swing

Hopefully next year, if/when I can get him to play again, I will have some 20 year old Taylormade metal woods to hand down to him. I am currently playing on them but hope to get some new ones for next season.

[Cussin hacker]

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and dog-gone it, people like me!!

[FHopper]

RE the shorter tees:
For me Golf is comprised of shots with certain clubs which have a "relationship" to each other on a given hole.
I want to hit a driver, OMG they are so easy to hit now!
I want to hit a fairway wood, few things are as satisfying as a well hit fairway wood.
I want the occasional long iron shot so that I can have a sense of accomplishment if I hit it well; mine have been replaced by rescues but I still want to hit them when a long iron is the shot.
I want to land on the green with a 7, 8, or 9.
I want to use wedges to make shots that cause people to say encouraging things.

It seems to me that I need to play from the whites in order to get a chance at all of those shots in the way the designer intended. We play golf on a course that someone designed and I want to play that design. I actually faded a 3 wood from the fairway around the trees of a dog leg a few weeks ago and came up "handy" just off the green. If I had played the hole from the front tees I would have driven past the dogleg and been on a different side of the fairway, that is not what Robert Trent Jones intended when he laid out the 18th. So sure, if you play 300 hundred rounds a year then mix it up and have fun, but some of us are doing it a different way. This sounds hokey but I want to play the shots my dad played when he taught me to play on this course over 45 years ago.
For some of us it is not about the handicap. (Which btw I don't have one, I just put a high number in my profile because I would not want to claim a better one.)

[I <3 Titleist]

While I'm sure there are thousands of golf courses where shots get more difficult depending on the tees, I've also found quite a few munis I play really don't make the hole more difficult.

For example:

White: 389 yd Par 4 straight up the gut, bunkers left and right.
Blue 412 yd Par 4, straight up the gut, bunkers left and right.

The difference between these two sets of tees for me is a couple of irons down.

Then there are the numerous par 3's that place the blue tees 10 feet from the whites on the same tee box.

The blacks can sometimes be much more challenging 1st shot, but where I play, the blues and the whites are usually never more than 15-20 yds apart, with maybe 5 to 10 ft of variance left or right of each other.

[Chris Stack]

I'm one of those guys who can drive the ball a mile (not really, but my GOOD drives tend to go around 250-280, and I'd say 75% are good, ie, fairway or 1st rough) but not do squat from about 75 yds in, including putting. I shoot around 100 (I don't have a REAL handicap, I figured 25 was around a "100 shooter" handicap) because I putt like a moron and have trouble chipping consistantly. And quite honestly, the dozen or two times a year just aren't enough for me to get a whole lot better, and I can't afford, in time or money, to play a whole lot more than that.

Coupla thoughts:
-I play from the whites. I'm not moving down to the ladies.

-I think driving is about the easiest part of the game. Get up there and hit it, and you've got about, what, 12,000 sq. yds of possible decent places for the ball to land? But when you're chipping, you've got a couple hundred, and when putting, you've got inches. So someone can be a pretty good driver (and remember, that's the FUN thing to practice) and still suck at golf

-I've always said that I suck, but I suck fast. I don't take many practice swings, and I always play ready golf. I really don't think the difference between shooting a 75 and shooting a 100 is the seconds per shot that it takes; slow golfers are slow because they look for their ball for 5 min, they have a ridiculous pre-shot routine, they think they're going to hit into the next foursome on the green with their 6i when 200 yards out, and they simply have their heads up their asses. I've played a round on a near-empty course while drinking (lots of) beer and shooting ~120 or so in under 3 hours. It ain't the score that makes you slow.

-Finally, I'm ALL for pace of play, but if you're really worried about the extra 12 minutes a 100-shooter takes over a 75-shooter given 30s per shot, especially on your local $30 public course, you need to think about a different hobby, or maybe seeing a therapist. You're wound too tightly.

[golfbarefoot]

you put too much stock in what other people say

agree.

One of the biggest elements to being successful in golf (and other endeavors) is to be confident and think positive. A prerequisite is being honest of your skills and play the game to complement(correct equipment, tees, strategy etc) never think you are a loser. Self image is huge. Ford's quote says it all.. "whether you think you can, or you think you cannot, either way you are right" -Henry Ford

[whetstone]

The only losers on the golf course are the guys who are rude, disrespectful, and destructive. Not keeping pace makes you disrespectful to other golfers. Anyone who plays for enjoyment, keeps pace, repairs divots and ball marks, and throws away their trash should be able to go enjoy a round of golf with their buddies and not have to worry what others think.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

agree.

Or

A person who doubts himself is like a man who would enlist in the ranks of his enemies and bear arms against himself. He makes his failure certain by himself being the first person to be convinced of it. ~Alexander Dumas

[Chief Broom]

Coupla thoughts:

Why do you play from the whites? Is it the same reason as FHopper because you prefer the way the course plays from those tees or is is some pre-conceived notion that men aren't supposed to play from the forward tees. I might be reading more into your post than I should but it sounds like the decision about which tees you'll be playing at any given course has nothing to do with the course itself and more to do with some expectation you have about what tees a man is supposed to play.

-Finally, I'm ALL for pace of play, but if you're really worried about the extra 12 minutes a 100-shooter takes over a 75-shooter given 30s per shot, especially on your local $30 public course, you need to think about a different hobby, or maybe seeing a therapist. You're wound too tightly.

I am wound pretty tight, but even I don't put much thought into what everyone else is doing on the golf course (my hands are full just trying to keep up with myself). But consider this: what if there are foursomes on every hole and a couple of those foursomes are made up of guys who are pretty bad golfers, and those groups insist on playing tees that are inappropriate to their level of play. Isn't it possible that just one or two groups like that could be responsible for slowing down the entire course? Hell anyone who has ever played on a crowded course knows just how bad one group can make it for everyone else, and the simple fact is that group would have a much better chance at shooting lower scores and moving along at a faster pace if they were playing the forward tees. Now ask yourself about all the times you found yourself in that situation and finally caught up to that group what tees those guys were playing.

Coincidence? I don't think so...

[Chris Stack]

Why do you play from the whites? Is it the same reason as FHopper because you prefer the way the course plays from those tees or is is some pre-conceived notion that men aren't supposed to play from the forward tees. I might be reading more into your post than I should but it sounds like the decision about which tees you'll be playing at any given course has nothing to do with the course itself and more to do with some expectation you have about what tees a man is supposed to play.

Correct. I'm an average golfer. I see no reason to play from the ladies tees when my ball traveling a little less distance is not the hold up. I play with my brother in law quite a bit, and he shoots low 80s/high 70s. I drive plus/minus 10 yards of almost every one of his drives. So me playing off closer tees isn't going to make a darn bit of difference when my problem is putting and chipping. You want to make a "ladies hole" (

) where the cup is twice as big, I'll glady play that. But I'm not going to play closer tees for no reason based on some arbitrary metric involving my score.

I am wound pretty tight, but even I don't put much thought into what everyone else is doing on the golf course (my hands are full just trying to keep up with myself). But consider this: what if there are foursomes on every hole and a couple of those foursomes are made up of guys who are pretty bad golfers, and those groups insist on playing tees that are inappropriate to their level of play. Isn't it possible that just one or two groups like that could be responsible for slowing down the entire course? Hell anyone who has ever played on a crowded course knows just how bad one group can make it for everyone else, and the simple fact is that group would have a much better chance at shooting lower scores and moving along at a faster pace if they were playing the forward tees. Now ask yourself about all the times you found yourself in that situation and finally caught up to that group what tees those guys were playing. Coincidence? I don't think so...

I rarely see anyone play anything but the white tees. Which I think is appropriate. Quite honestly, I think this whole "tee thing" is a red herring. Look at my other point about what slows people down. Playing from a tee that's an extra 50 yards back has nothing on guys looking for 20 minutes for that Pro V1 they hit into the deep weeds.