The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

Spine tilted back towards the target, looks pretty stacked to me.

That's not what stacked is. The spine doesn't tilt towards the target. If you do that, you're doing something wrong.

The picture's deceiving because it's shot from face-on but to Arnie's right, which makes the top of his back look closer to the target than the bottom (his tailbone). That's not true.

What about this picture of Arnold Palmer though, his left heel is coming off the ground:

It is - barely - but he's still fairly well stacked (and tilted - again, "tilt" is not towards the target).

[brianc]

I personally am a big supporter of the Stack and Tilt. I just started taking the game seriously this season and found myself to be a player with alot of potential but also one that was vastly inconsistent: I could regularly shoot 40 on the front and than card a 50 on the back. Every round I played I would sit there and rattle off 4, 5, or 6 pars in a row and follow them up with 5 double bogeys. As a result all of my scores were between 90-93. About a month ago I read up on the Stack and Tilt and decided to give it a shot. I played my first round using it a week ago and shot an 84. I had never broken 90 before that. Coincidence? Probably not. It yielded consistency for me and allowed me to play a full round striking the ball well for the vast majority of my shots. I don't think that it should be dismissed as a fad. If you are having trouble with consistency give it a serious look....it is an easy method to learn and it is a very simple swing to repeat. I also believe that if you are successful with what you do than don't fix what isn't broken. Point being that there isn't one way to hit a golf ball correctly.

[Cleveland Gunmetal]

I was using this method for a while (I'm sure I'm a big advocate of the S&T; in some of the old threads), or at least what I thought was this method (I too just read Golf Digest, it made sense and goofed around with it) and I had never hit my irons so crisp and long. It was great. However, the biggest challenge for me at that time was off the tee. I'd hit these low hooks. Then I scrapped the method when I started hitting my irons poorly, even some off the hosel (yikes!) and lost confidence. I'm trying to get back into it but am hitting my irons very poorly and struggling with consistency and still with the driver (or longer clubs). I have a tendency to play the ball back and trap it, I think, and am having trouble attacking from the inside. Just thought I'd share. I have seen some amazing results at least with my irons in the past so I know it's doable. Just not working right now.

[TomL]

I started right after the Golf Digest article with whatever I could cobble together. There weren't any YouTube videos then.

I used that homemade S&T; swing and did well - hitting crisp irons. It took me to the mid-80'ss and once I did break 80 - a 77. Because it was self taught and there were no instructors I didn't have a way to correct faults.

I bought the DVD set and found out so much more about the swing.

Still,I needed to see some drills etc and those started to show up on YouTube - so that helped.

This past year I struggled with irons - leaving short weak shots. I was really swiping across the ball and a fade off the tee became my safe shot.

Then a clinic with Dave Wedzik in Erie,PA was an eye-opener. These guys at "The Golf Evolution School" were taught and certified by Bennett and Plummer and wow - did we learn some great stuff. Plus, with video tools we now can see where we were as a baseline - and then know where the faults lie. (Shameless plug!)

For me,the hipslide was totally missing and now I'm hitting more draws for distance and really hitting great drives. Push/draws for better distance.

Like any swing - a certified instructor can do so much for you - that you can't do for yourself. And video is a great tool.

I'm 58 and my back has never been better. And,I did break 80 couple more times this year winning our flight in the member/member. I think I hit every fairway one of the two days.

Stack and Tilt is really a good golf pattern. I'm a believer.

I better edit my profile - my index is 12.2.

[iacas]

I started right after the Golf Digest article with whatever I could cobble together. There weren't any YouTube videos then.

Hey Tom, welcome aboard. It's funny - just the other day I found a post from you in 2007 talking about your stack and tilt swing. July, I think. I shared it with Dave.

I better edit my profile - my index is 12.2.

And on the way down, too.

Here's a nice video (not for Tom, just for this thread): P.S. I hate the title of that video. I don't think it needs "defended." I'd have called it "S&T; Primer."

[spmurph]

Just a few questions regarding S&T.;

1. Is it really easier on the back as I have heard mentioned? If I remember correctly from the discussion between Dave and TM, this was one of their "agree to disagree" subjects.

2. Why does performance with the driver seem to be the most common complaint from those who try to switch to S&T;?

[iacas]

1. Is it really easier on the back as I have heard mentioned? If I remember correctly from the discussion between Dave and TM, this was one of their "agree to disagree" subjects.

I think it's been easier on my back. Mike Weir made comments about how much easier it was for him to practice longer and with less (no) pain. I don't think I've ever read a post from someone who adopted the swing (properly) and had back issues. No PGA Tour pro has.

2. Why does performance with the driver seem to be the most common complaint from those who try to switch to S&T;?

I think that a lot of people do this part wrong. I think their upper center (their head) moves forward a bit since they're trying to push hard forward with their hips.

So, I think "not doing it right" is the reason there. I'll PM Dave and maybe he'll be able to share more.

[david_wedzik]

Just a few questions regarding S&T.;

First a statement and then a couple quick reasons why the driver seems to be a sticking point for some:

The driver much longer than, say, a 7 iron and you stand further away from it. Because of that and the fact that it is teed up it must be swung shallower. Knowing this is important. Here are three points to be aware of: 1. Be sure that you are not overdoing the side tilt. Anything can be done too much and overdoing that piece can add too much steepening. 2. Push the hips forward more than with the irons to accommodate the forward ball position and be sure to release the pelvis, "tuck the butt", and extend while the head and center of your shoulders stays in place. This is a big time shallowing move and creates right side axis tilt on the downswing. 3. Be sure in side tilting, standing up, and turning during the backswing that the arms are attached to your torso and not lifting above your shoulder plane. Again...this is a steepening move and would be a bigger NO NO with the driver....think steep shoulders, shallow arms. Hope this helps. Dave

[14ledo81]

I have a question. I just finished reading Hogans five lessons book. I thought it was very interesting and informative, but I was wondering how much of this book applies to the s and t swing?

[mc0388]

Arnold's basics:

I wish golf instruction today was that simple

[iacas]

A video from Dave Wedzik:



You can view more at his YouTube channel .

[Chief Broom]

I'm reading the new S&T; book and finding it really fascinating. So far they've made a lot of real good points. Like what we've always been told are fundamentals really arent: grip, stance, address, etc. are about as individualized as each golfer. I worked today at the range on one of the first drills in the book. And while I won't say it was miraculous I was impressed by a few things. First I didn't understand what the book meant by tucking your butt under your torso in the follow through, but on the range that discribed perfectly the sensation you get when standing up and facing the target while still maintaining the tilt of the spine. That's a power move I've always used but never really thought about it that way and hopefully that will be a key thought in helping me to fire the hips in the follow through properly.

Which all leads to my question: Is it possible to hit a fade while using a strict S&T; swing? Doing this drill (hit a few balls w/weight forward; few more weight forward-turn left shoulder down; few more forward-left shoulder-take arms back to the inside; few more forward-left shoulder-arms inside-tuck butt under in follow through) I was hitting nothing but draws and hooks. As a guy who's been hitting a fade all his life draws kind of scare me. How do you control the draw? I suppose I've never done that good of a job controlling my fade, but I'm used to it. Can't say that about a draw. Should I attempt to reduce the draw by not taking the club back to the inside, or manipulating the club at the top of the back swing (if I cock my wrist at the top I can always hit a strong fade, or counteract those rare tendencies I occassionally have to hook the ball)?

I've just started this with the book so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but this is a process and can honestly say I'm not comfortable giving up my fade.

[iacas]

Which all leads to my question: Is it possible to hit a fade while using a strict S&T; swing?

Yep. That's around page 125 or so, I think. You'll get there. It's a push fade, because that way you're still hitting the ball on the back side of the circle, and you just line your stance up to the right. I hit a nice fade on the 18th today off the tee (it's easier off the tee).

The "stock" shot is a draw, but that's the stock shot for any good swing because contact is made back of center (i.e. the low point of your swing). Nicklaus was a push fader, as was Trevino. Not many pull-faders out there (Azinger comes to mind).

Should I attempt to reduce the draw by not taking the club back to the inside, or manipulating the club at the top of the back swing (if I cock my wrist at the top I can always hit a strong fade, or counteract those rare tendencies I occassionally have to hook the ball)?

Read a bit more, yeah. I think you're getting ahead of yourself as you suggested. And remember, the CLUB doesn't really go inside so much as the HANDS get depth. Look at the hands, not the club.

Oh, and if you're used to fading, make sure the club is slightly open to the target line and your stance... you may have it closed, exaggerating the hooks/draws you were hitting.

[Chief Broom]

Should I attempt to reduce the draw by not taking the club back to the inside, or manipulating the club at the top of the back swing (if I cock my wrist at the top I can always hit a strong fade, or counteract those rare tendencies I occassionally have to hook the ball)?

Just finished playing 9 and tried a few things to see how it went. I think for me the best combination so far is to not take the club back so far on the inside (probably very close to a neutral take away with just a slight inside bias) and then vary how much wrist cock at the top of the swing to give me varying degrees of fade (more wrist cock = more fade). I tried on the first few holes to play a draw and while it wasn't a total disaster I just felt better playing a fade. The last few holes I played it just as I laid out and I was keeping the ball in play while getting maximum contact and distance. I hit a nice 3w off the tee up hill a good 230yds (dead straight) and the final hole I tagged my driver about 270yds (15-20yd fade) down a flat fairway. Those are numbers I'm very happy with and the swing felt comfortable and repeatable.

[Chief Broom]

Read a bit more, yeah. I think you're getting ahead of yourself as you suggested. And remember, the CLUB doesn't really go inside so much as the HANDS get depth. Look at the hands, not the club.

Caught in the cross post.

I realize I'm early in the process and any swing change is supposed to be awkward for a while. I do like how the inside take away is caused by the shoulder turn rather than the hands and arms. To be honest I've never been able to hit a repeatable draw. A hook yes but not a draw. Lately, and it has pretty much coincided with my tinkering around with S&T;, I've become pretty adept at drawing my hybrids. It's become the stock shot. It's easy for me to fade them, but to do that I have to go with the wrist cock thingy at the top of my backswing. I have no idea what that is causing? I do know that giving myself that feeling of wrist cock at the top of the backswing has always been a good power move for me but it has also always caused a huge slice if I'm not careful. This may well be a compensation I need to get away from, but we'll see. I forgot to add that during my practice this AM I was struggling with keeping the club face on my 6i (that's what the book said to use for that initial drill) neutral or slightly open. No matter how much I'd set it opn with my grip I'd close it pretty good at impact. My grip is naturally strong too. Both of those habits will definitely require serious adjustment...

[dietz]

No matter how much I'd set it opn with my grip I'd close it pretty good at impact. My grip is naturally strong too. Both of those habits will definitely require serious adjustment...

One thing to make sure to keep your clubface square at impact is to keep the right hand on top of the club as your taking it back to say a parallel position, then allow the club to come up and hinge naturally. But be careful when doing this, you must keep your hand depth working inside and keep the clubhead out side the hands, if looking DTL.

Here is a video of me working on this very thing, you can see the clubhead is still in just a bit, like right on the hands, but you can see the right hand on top of the club. Hope this helps

[lobsterzilla]

cheif I know you're a decent golfer so you want to jump right in neck deep and get it fixed, but the book makes -very- explicit instructions to NOT skip ahead ;) Try to just be patient with it and let the changes come to you. Sure you're prob going to see some hiccups for a little bit but just relax :)

[Chief Broom]

Try to just be patient with it and let the changes come to you.

I think the problem I face with this is learning to let go of my fade. It's not like my fade has ever done me much good, but it's always been there.

I'm a bogey golfer. My handicap simply attests to the fact that I've gotten pretty good at bogey golf. But in being honest with myself (and golf is a great game for making you be honest with yourself) I'm on a plateau, and if I want to improve I've got to move beyond what I've always done. Specifically I have to get more GIR. I began tracking my stats about a year ago and while I've seen improvement in every area of my game the one place I've remained constant are GIR: 25%. I'm not totally discouraged by this, but I think it's clear that basic ball striking is what's holding me back. The good news is that I'm a results driven guy and if playing a draw gets me those GIR that'll make a believer out of me. We'll see...