The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Leftygolfer]

The thing that excites me about S&T; is taking some of the timing out of golf. Obviously things have to happen in the right order but if my weight is almost where it needs to be at the top of the swing before the bump, I can't imagine not being more consistant. I am snowed in here so all I have to go on is my past golf and the feelings I had. I know I went through huge lows where I was a 10 turning in all scores to ghin and could barely break 90. The ball went everywhere, I couldn't do anything but miss it right with these terrible low hooks. I guess based on your experience, David, have you worked with players like in being really good (I have had great stretching in rounds where I can really play) sometimes and really bad sometimes. What kind of results are typical if I put my mind to it, use video to monitor progress, and really be a range rat for a month or two early this season. I don't care if I shot really low scores but just want to know if I play ok I can still be close to 80 and not fear the hook as I do now. If there is OB right I am terrified on the tee.

[PS90]

Hey Everyone,

I am brand new to the forum. I've only been playing for a couple of years, and recently looked into S&T;, although, since its winter in the NW, I've got a few months before I can even give it a try.

I have a quick question for you experts on S&T;: I have NEVER been any good at all with my hybrids, and since S&T; seems to be iron-oriented - would it be smarter to use a couple long (3 & 4) irons? Or should I stick with the hybrids? Or is this another "user-prefence" question? I have actually never used a 3 or 4 iron, all I know is that I hate my hybrids.

Thanks very much for any opinions/help.

[iacas]

I have a quick question for you experts on S&T;: I have NEVER been any good at all with my hybrids, and since S&T; seems to be iron-oriented - would it be smarter to use a couple long (3 & 4) irons? Or should I stick with the hybrids? Or is this another "user-prefence" question? I have actually never used a 3 or 4 iron, all I know is that I hate my hybrids.

I don't think it matters. Long irons require a bit more speed to get good results, but the main reason most people seem to have problems with long irons is because they don't hit down on the ball and because their clubface is closed (so they can slice it back right), both problems which S&T; can help you solve.

I carry only one hybrid - a 2I/5W replacement - and my irons start with a 3I. User preference, yes.

[i-Guy]

Hey Everyone,

I would like to clear somehting up on this topic if I may (only an 8 handicapper) but I am tired of people thinking that the S&T; is an "iron only" swing...my iron game has always been the strength of my full swing clubs (if you want to call it a strength as I am an 8 handciap due to a very good short game and when my ball stiking is on...prior to the S&T; I can break 80) but I have always had trouble off the tee and with any type of wood looking club (including hybrids). This was because I had a slight over-the-top move that I could get away with on irons but it sucked for hitting any type of wood looking club. I created enough club head speed to play long irons and compensate for my bad move. Anyway since I switched to the S&T; (only 5-6 weeks ago now) I totally rip my woods now. I kill my hybrid (see sig) and I can hit my 3W and Driver with confidence. I recently had one of the best driving rounds of my golfing life. So if you do the pattern correctly, you should be able to hit any club in the bag and then you can make your own choice about which clubs to have in the bag...clear as mud???

[PS90]

iacas and i-Guy,

Thanks very much for the info/advice. I am interested in long irons just because I have never used them, I guess, and don't really like the hybrids. My problem is that all my golfing buddies are righties, and my course only has one set of lefty clubs for rent (with no long irons in it, or course), so I don't really have any opportunity to "try them before I buy them". I think I'll stick with this new swing with my same hybrids and see if it helps (crosses fingers)

Thanks again, guys.

[Leftygolfer]

iacas and i-Guy,

I don't think it is too uncommon to not like hybrids. I know that I have tried the traditional ones and didn't care much for them. I have two mizuno Fli-His I bought last year and they are a good mix of forgivenss and un-hybridness if that makes sense. I can hit my new long irons higher so I am carrying them now but I do like them. I got them very cheap on ebay. Just an FYI.

[PS90]

I don't think it is too uncommon to not like hybrids. I know that I have tried the traditional ones and didn't care much for them. I have two mizuno Fli-His I bought last year and they are a good mix of forgivenss and un-hybridness if that makes sense. I can hit my new long irons higher so I am carrying them now but I do like them. I got them very cheap on ebay. Just an FYI.

Thanks, Lefty. I still can't decide. I agree with you that it may be my "entry-level" hybrids that are the problem. I wish I could try some good ones out....

[timastyle]

Sorry if this has been covered here before, but I didn't want to go through 17 pages of replies to see if it was. So here's the thing. I got the book for Christmas and started reading it and got through the backswing and downswing, so I decided to go out and try it out at the range.

I should preface this by saying that I thought the book up to that point, FOR ME, was hard to follow. The reason I say this was even in the chapter before the backswing chapter, I believe it was called the Basic Methods of Stack & Tilt, I found it rather odd that while covering the high level idea of S&T;, it went into troubleshooting the different shot types, because it hadn't gotten into the details of the S&T; swing yet. Maybe I missed something in that chapter that I shouldn't have and it would have made more sense. Then the Stance and Backswing chapter started off well, but once it got into the backswing, it started talking about what the different parts of the body (i.e. arms, torse, legs and hips, shoulders, etc) were supposed to do individually, which for me created a disconnect, followed up with "now here's what they all do together in a few paragraphs. The idea of the backswing applied to the downswing.

I have read many posts stating how S&T; felt much more natural than the traditional swing and how it is supposed to alieve some pressure on the back because of less torque on the back, but my experience at the range was the exact opposite. When I tried it out at the range, it felt that there was more pressure on my back and the swing felt more unnatural than the way I currently swing my clubs. Also, there was no consistency in my swing what so ever. I eneded up finishing the range session by going back to my old swing.

With all that said, I would really like to give S&T; an honest try because of all the advantages it has to offer (consistent ball striking, less back pain, remove over the top swings, etc). The question I have for those of you who have read the book and gone out and tried it is how did you approach the book? I know for Hogan's Five Fundamentals book, many have said to master the first chapter prior to moving to the following. Does this approach apply to S&T;? Are there chapters after the downswing chapter that help clarify the swing more?

Thanks and sorry for the long post, but I just wanted to give some background.

[PS90]

Hi timastyle,

I am in no way an expert, and my comment probably isn't all that helpful, but I found that I wasn't smart enough to get things figured out by reading the book, so I got rid of it and bought the DVD's, which have really helped me get a grasp on what they are teaching. I have yet to see if I can actually make it work, however. (BTW, I'm not affiliated with any of those guys and am in no way trying to make a plug for buying the DVD's).

[timastyle]

Hi timastyle,

That's actually what I was thinking about doing myself. I definitely prefer visual aids rather than words as well and the pictures in the book didn't provide a clear understanding of the swing. For example, on the backswing portion of the book, it shows a picture from a down the line view of the beginning portion of the backswing, then the picture for midway through the backswing is a 3/4 view (in between a down the line view and face on view), and the top of the backswing is a face on picture. That made it rather hard to follow. I would have much preferred either the down the line view of the sequence or a face on view or both.

[iacas]

For example, on the backswing portion of the book, it shows a picture from a down the line view of the beginning portion of the backswing, then the picture for midway through the backswing is a 3/4 view (in between a down the line view and face on view), and the top of the backswing is a face on picture. That made it rather hard to follow. I would have much preferred either the down the line view of the sequence or a face on view or both.

It seems like you're talking about the illustration on page 55, and that's done for a reason: the camera is staying face-on-to the spine so that you can see how it's going from vertical at setup (face-on view) to being tilted towards the ball (down the line view) at the top of the backswing. That's on purpose, and it's done for a reason that you seem to have missed. That's the best way to show what they're trying to show. The goal of those pictures isn't to show the backswing sequence - it's to show how the spine adds left tilt (side tilt) on the backswing, and it's done the best way it can be done to show you that.

If you want a face-on view of the backswing look at page 45 or 47, 54, 67. The full swing from a face-on view starts on page 101 (the right pages - left is the conventional swing). I personally think most people can do okay with just the book, but doing so requires careful study. You can't just read through it and expect to get everything. The book isn't short on illustrations and, for the most part, they pretty well convey what Mike and Andy are trying to say in the appropriate section. You don't really need a full Stack and Tilt swing from both down-the-line and face-on views. There are plenty of videos on YouTube for that - look at Charlie Wi's for the best example. I will admit it would have been nice, perhaps, to have a linear series of snapshots of the swing, but I think with the swing sequence on page 101 and the book's emphasis on feelings rather than "you must look exactly like this!" that Mike and Andy felt it would be unnecessary.

[timastyle]

It seems like you're talking about the illustration on page 55, and that's done for a reason: the camera is staying face-on-to the spine so that you can see how it's going from vertical at setup (face-on view) to being tilted towards the ball (down the line view) at the top of the backswing. That's on purpose, and it's done for a reason that you seem to have missed. That's the best way to show what they're trying to show. The goal of those pictures isn't to show the backswing sequence - it's to show how the spine adds left tilt (side tilt) on the backswing, and it's done the best way it can be done to show you that.

Iacas - Like I said in my first post, I probably missed something in the book. Do you recommend reading chapter by chapter, getting each one down right before moving on to the next or do you think it's more beneficial to read the entire book and then try the swing out to make sure you don't miss any messages from the book? Also, what are your thoughts on having a troubleshooting section prior to going in depth to the S&T; swing?

[walk18]

It seems like some people are over-analyzing this thing, worrying if they’ve missed a page of the book or something. The swing is simple. Watch one on youtube. You're "stacked" by starting and staying on the left side, the "tilt" happens naturally with a straightening of the right leg on the backswing and the other point is keeping the hands in and close. In all, 2-3 simple swing thoughts to start out. Once I bought the book it confirmed these things for me. Those things should be all one needs to at least get started. You can tinker and troubleshoot later with the book, but it seems to me the whole idea of S&T; is that you don't have to overthink things.

[iacas]

Do you recommend reading chapter by chapter, getting each one down right before moving on to the next or do you think it's more beneficial to read the entire book and then try the swing out to make sure you don't miss any messages from the book?

I'd read it the same way I tend to read things like this (things I'd consider important and from which I want to gain understanding): I'd read through it once, at normal reading speed, all the way through.

Then I'd go back and read again from the beginning and pause when I've absorbed a little bit of information. I'd work on that until it's good, then move on, even if "moving on" meant going backwards to refresh my memory of something earlier. You might find yourself stopping 10x per chapter or doing two chapters at once, I don't know... But trying to "do the S&T; swing" after one straight-through reading is probably not wise. And I'm not saying that's what you did, nor that my method will work for anyone, but that's what I'd recommend.

Also, what are your thoughts on having a troubleshooting section prior to going in depth to the S&T; swing?

I think you should read the last paragraph on page 29. The "troubleshooting" tips are geared towards the guy that wants to spend 30 minutes and "learn" S&T;, but who in all reality is probably doing 95% his old swing and 5% S&T...; they're flaws which you won't see once you further develop and refine S&T;, but rather, they're problems that will pop up really early and which you should be able to overcome so you can start to generate the proper "feeling" of an S&T; swing.

To put it another way, they troubleshoot the "learn S&T; in 30 minutes" people - which I recommend everyone do, btw - so that they can start to get into the specifics from a better (i.e. "more neutral") position than their current swing.

You can tinker and troubleshoot later with the book, but it seems to me the whole idea of S&T; is that you don't have to overthink things.

It is simple, but

change is complex, and so I don't think everyone can just think of 2-3 things and be okay. Change is very difficult, and even if you're going to end up at a simpler place the road to get there can be complex.

[david_wedzik]

I should preface this by saying that I thought the book up to that point, FOR ME, was hard to follow. The reason I say this was even in the chapter before the backswing chapter, I believe it was called the Basic Methods of Stack & Tilt, I found it rather odd that while covering the high level idea of S&T;, it went into troubleshooting the different shot types, because it hadn't gotten into the details of the S&T; swing yet.

Couple points:

1. As to the Troubleshooting different shot types early in the book - this part is actually troubleshooting the things that people trying SnT have the most problems with early on. That is why it is here in the book...directly after the section on the basic form and getting started quickly with SnT. There are other troubleshooting sections later in the following the more indepth description of the entire motion - these are simply the major issues people "generally" have early on. Considering how many people likely read to the part about learning SnT in 30 minutes then went to give it a shot...this part is probably referred to quite often ;>) 2. I firmly believe SnT is more natural and I think you will find it that way in time. That said when you first try SnT (as with many physical activities when using a different form than you are used to) there may be muscle groups being "activated" that you aren't normally using. You were likely just feeling these areas pushed further than is normal for you. Not doing anything wrong mind you...just different feelings. Hope it helps. Dave

[timastyle]

I'd read it the same way I tend to read things like this (things I'd consider important and from which I want to gain understanding): I'd read through it once, at normal reading speed, all the way through.

Thanks for the advice. I actually planned on reading the book that way, but I was so excited in getting started with it that I ended up heading to the range before I finished the book.

See, I missed that section on page 29, which makes a lot more sense now (goes to show you not to read an education book on a plane when you can barely keep your eyes open). I actually did go to the range and tried out 30 minute range session and didn't mind it at all and for the most part, I made fairly good contact with the ball with a slight draw. It wasn't until I got to the in depth portion when things went wrong and it probably had to do with me not taking the time to fully understand what was being said in the book before going out and trying it. Just the ADD nature in me.

Couple points:

Points taken. I think a bit had to do with trying to do everything to a T as I read in the book that was screwing things up a bit too making it feel unnatural. One of them specifically being the left shoulder turning down. In retrospect, doesn't the left shoulder generally swing down naturally anyways? I think I may have been overthinking things.

I think I'll give this book another try and if that doesn't work, I'll go with the DVD and hopefully have some better luck. I'l report back in a bit with how it all went...

[iacas]

In retrospect, doesn't the left shoulder generally swing down naturally anyways?

Quick answer: too many people swing too flat with their left shoulder - more across ("around") than "down" (and around).

[keb]

I am very interested in learning the Stack and Tillt, but am concerned that here in ND there are no instructors. I am a self taught 55 year old who came back to the game after my girls started college and am now a golfaholic. My game has been improviing, but I want to take it to a new level. My plan was to finally take lessons from the local pro. i am sure he does not teach the stack and tilt. Consequently, I am faced with giving up that idea and go forward with the stack and tilt on my own. Looking for recommendations on learning the swing and whether it makes sense to go that route rather than taking lessons. I did note in one of more recent Golf Digests a plan for initial learners of the Stack and Tilt to progress into that swing. Thanks.