Okay, another lost and found ball ruling question…

[localhawaii]

So me (player 1) and my buddy (player 2) is playing against our other two buddies, let’s call them player 3 and player 4. Player 3 hits his ball over the green (and a bunker) down a steep hill, and rolls down and ends up in 8 to 12 inches of long grass preventing it from going into the water (all though we did not see it at the time). Player 3 can’t seem to find his ball and thinking it may have gone in the water (and still within the 5 minutes) decides his ball his lost. He states his ball is lost and he is going to take a drop. Right after he hits, I find a ball and say “hey, is this your ball” and he identifies it as his. I say he has to play this ball because he identified it as his, even though he just took a drop. Knowing its in a bad spot (having to hit blind uphill and over a bunker) he hesitantly plays this ball and ends up hitting a plus 9 on the hole.

I’ve tried dissecting rule 27 attempting to interpret how it applies but I can’t seem to find a definitive answer. Based off this situation, I think the appropriate questions are:

What happens if you take a drop and then immediately “find” your ball? Which ball is in play?
Does it make a difference that me as player1 found the ball versus other players on his “side”?

Am I missing any details that would help better answer these questions?

Thanks for the expertise!

[pherg]

OK my reading of the rule is this:

Because he hadn't taken a shot nearer to the hole with his dropped ball than where his original ball was found (I'm assuming that he dropped his ball near the hazard which was further away from the hole than the long grass where his ball was found) and because his ball was found within the five minutes, his original ball is the one in play.



I'm not as sure with the second one but I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter who finds it.

[Jay-Bird]

Player 3 thought his ball might be in the WATER (not LOST). Proceed under

rule 26 . See Decision 26/6

26/6 Ball Assumed to Be in Water Hazard Found Outside Hazard After Another Ball Played Under Stroke-and-Distance Procedure

Q. A player assumes his original ball to be in a water hazard, despite the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Using the option in Rule 26-1a, he plays another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. He then finds his original ball outside the hazard. What is the ruling? A. The original ball is lost and the other ball is in play under penalty of stroke and distance — see Rule 27-1a. (Revised)

[beisenhauer]

Once the ball is deemed lost and another ball is played, finding the original ball is moot. See the definition of "lost ball" in the rules. Since Player 3 proceeded under the water hazard rule and the ball was subsequently determined to be outside of the hazard, Player 3 played from a wrong place. See Decision 26-1/3.

[iacas]

Player 3 can't seem to find his ball and thinking it may have gone in the water (and still within the 5 minutes) decides his ball his lost.

1) A player cannot "think" his ball went in the water. It must be known or virtually certain or whatever the specific words are. Basically, if there's any doubt, it's not considered to be in the water hazard.

2) You can't "decide" your ball is lost. You can't state it or declare it either. It's either lost or it's not. "Lost" balls aren't like "unplayable" balls in that they can be "declared."

He states his ball is lost and he is going to take a drop.

Where did he take a drop? Based on the rest of your story it sounds like he took his drop from the spot of his last stroke (the one he "lost"). If that's true, and he didn't declare that he was hitting a provisional, then he essentially penalized himself one stroke and put another ball in play. Essentially, by playing another ball without declaring it a provisional, he deemed his first ball unplayable. THAT ball, the one he dropped, is in play. He's abandoned the first one.

If he dropped from some other spot then a whole bunch more rulings come into play. That ball is still the ball in play and he still abandoned his first one, but he played from a wrong place... The way I read it he dropped from the original spot. If his third went into the long grass, his penalty is one shot and he lies four, hitting five.

Right after he hits, I find a ball and say "hey, is this your ball" and he identifies it as his. I say he has to play this ball because he identified it as his, even though he just took a drop.

Nope. He already put another ball in play (within the rules or not, I don't know, but it sounds like he did so within the rules).

I've tried dissecting rule 27 attempting to interpret how it applies but I can't seem to find a definitive answer. Based off this situation, I think the appropriate questions are:

Rule 27's the right rule. He didn't seem to declare a provisional, which makes the ball he dropped the ball "in play." Rule 20 becomes relevant for drop procedure, and particularly relevant if he dropped in the wrong spot.

What happens if you take a drop and then immediately "find" your ball? Which ball is in play?

He made a stroke at the ball he dropped without declaring it a provisional, so that ball's in play. It doesn't matter if he dropped it in the right spot or the wrong spot.

His original ball is the ball in play if: a) it's found within five minutes (he has time to get over to identify it - it just has to be found in five minutes) b) he hasn't yet made a stroke at any other ball OR he makes a stroke at a ball that's declared to be a provisional and doesn't make a stroke at it again from a spot closer to the hole. If he dropped from the original spot, he's hitting his x+2 shot (again, if the ball he originally hit was his third, he'd be hitting his fifth). Since he reluctantly played from a tough spot after you found his ball, and since he tried to "declare" his ball lost, that makes me think he played from the original spot. If he dropped from some other spot (like near where he thought his ball went), rule 20-7's going to come into play.

Does it make a difference that me as player1 found the ball versus other players on his "side"?

Nope. Anyone can find a ball.

Am I missing any details that would help better answer these questions?

I have two:

Where'd he drop? I assume he dropped from the original spot. Was the long grass within the margin of the hazard or no? I assume it's not. If it is, the ball's then known or virtually certain to be in the hazard.

Player 3 thought his ball might be in the WATER (not LOST). Proceed under

Nah. The banks near some hazards have long grass because they're tough to mow. That doesn't always make them part of the water hazard.

But if they were within the hazard, well, the whole ruling changes. I suspect the OP wouldn't have asked the question if that were the case, though.

Once the ball is deemed lost and another ball is played, finding the original ball is moot. See the definition of "lost ball" in the rules.

That's right, but I want to point out one thing too: You can't deem a ball lost. The rules do.

Since Player 3 proceeded under the water hazard rule and the ball was subsequently determined to be outside of the hazard, Player 3 played from a wrong place. See Decision 26-1/3.

I didn't read the grass as being in the hazard. I don't think that Decision comes into play because, by my reading, the guy played from the original spot, not a spot behind the hazard as 26-1/3 says.

[Jay-Bird]

1) A player cannot "think" his ball went in the water. It must be known or virtually certain or whatever the specific words are. Basically, if there's any doubt, it's not considered to be in the water hazard.

Iacas is correct. Players cannot ASSUME.

26-1/1 Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain" If a ball has been struck towards a water hazard and has not been found, the term "known or virtually certain" indicates the level of confidence that the ball is in the water hazard that is required for the player to proceed under Rule 26-1. A player may not assume that his ball is in a water hazard simply because there is a possibility that the ball may be in the hazard. If it is not known that the ball is in the water hazard, in order for the player to proceed under Rule 26-1 there must be almost no doubt that the ball is in the hazard. Otherwise, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. All available evidence must be taken into account in determining whether knowledge or virtual certainty exists, including any testimony and the physical conditions in the area around the water hazard. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by a fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, there exists a greater certainty that the ball is in the hazard than there would be if there were deep rough in the area. Observing a ball splash in a water hazard would not necessarily provide knowledge or virtual certainty as to the location of the ball as sometimes such a ball may skip out of a hazard. The same principle would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c). (Revised)

They need to re-write Decision 26/6 and eliminate the word ASSUME.

[Fourputt]

Once he made a stroke at the second ball it became the ball in play. The original ball is abandoned. He must finish the hole with the second ball, recording any penalty strokes incurred. A provisional ball is not even an option once he goes forward to search for the original ball. Rule 27-2:

27-2. Provisional Ball a. Procedure If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

Iacas is correct. Players cannot ASSUME.

In this case using the word "assume" is correct. Decision 26/6 is demonstrating the error in making such an assumption. That is the primary purpose for the decision's existence. Had the player not made that erroneous assumption, he could have played the original ball and saved himself a penalty.

[beisenhauer]

You can't deem a ball lost.

The USGA disagrees with you.

[iacas]

The USGA disagrees with you.

The rules can deem a ball lost. A person cannot. Not even your highly selective quoting changes that.

I felt as if your original post used the word "deemed" as if a player did the "deeming" - as a synonym for "declared," effectively. There are criteria that must be met for a ball to be, under the rules, deemed to be lost. Those are: a) it's not found in five minutes b) the player makes a stroke from a place nearer to the hole c) player puts another ball in play under stroke and distance d) ball isn't actually lost but isn't recoverable due to a few situations (a kid ran out in the fairway and took it, it went into a sinkhole, etc.) e) player made a stroke at a substituted ball Note that none of them are a player saying "it's lost." A player's actions, under the rules, for the original ball into "lost" status. So I stand by what I said - you (i.e. a person) can't "deem" a ball lost. The reasons for this are simple. It even happened in that stupid Big Break "U.S. vs. Europe." The U.S. team hit their second shot on a par five into a bush. They hit a provisional to a few feet from the hole for a fairly easy par. They said "let's not even look for it," and they didn't. Except the European team found it. Since the U.S. team can't "declare" or "deem" a ball lost, they were forced to play their original ball and made bogey. Had they run up and putted out before the original ball had been found (by anyone), or had five minutes elapsed, then the rules would deem the original ball lost. But again, a person (i.e. someone who could be referred to as "you") cannot do so.

[Fourputt]

The USGA disagrees with you.

I think what Erik meant is that you can't

declare a ball lost, although actually YOU can't deem a ball lost either. A ball can only be deemed lost by a rule that so states. The ball is deemed lost under the rules if you play a provisional without following the proper procedure. In that case, the so called "provisional ball" is the ball in play, and since you can't have 2 balls in play at once (except under Rule 3-3), the original ball is deemed lost by the rule because of your actions, not because you say it is .

[zeg]

While it's important to understand that you can't just declare a ball lost (e.g., if you really like your provisional shot but you find your original ball in a divot on your way there), in this case I don't think dithering over whether the player or the rules have "deemed" the ball lost is important. The point is that by dropping and making a stroke, the ball is played as though it were lost. Whether it's lost, unplayable, or simply no longer the ball in play is irrelevant...

[iacas]

While it's important to understand that you can't just declare a ball lost (e.g., if you really like your provisional shot but you find your original ball in a divot on your way there), in this case I don't think dithering over whether the player or the rules have "deemed" the ball lost is important. The point is that by dropping and making a stroke, the ball is played as though it were lost. Whether it's lost, unplayable, or simply no longer the ball in play is irrelevant...

With all due respect, these things

do matter. Ask Don Donatello.

[msd3075]

The reasons for this are simple. It even happened in that stupid Big Break "U.S. vs. Europe." The U.S. team hit their second shot on a par five into a bush. They hit a provisional to a few feet from the hole for a fairly easy par. They said "let's not even look for it," and they didn't. Except the European team found it. Since the U.S. team can't "declare" or "deem" a ball lost, they were forced to play their original ball and made bogey.

I didn't think anyone actually watched that crap........

[zeg]

With all due respect, these things

Not sure what he did and a quick google didn't help (I guess maybe he was involved in the "revoked" provisional business you mentioned earlier). I don't mean to say the distinction is irrelevant in general, only once you've dropped and struck without saying the magic word, the die is cast.

[beisenhauer]

The rules can deem a ball lost. A person cannot. Not even your highly selective quoting changes that.

"Deem" is not simply a synonym for "declare". Merriam-Webster.com defines it as "to come to think or judge." To "deem a ball lost" is an act of judgement that must be performed by a player based on the criteria set out in the rules. I never used the word otherwise, and this whole argument over the use of a simple word could have been avoided if that word had been properly understood rather than assumed to mean something it didn't.

[iacas]

"Deem" is not simply a synonym for "declare". Merriam-Webster.com defines it as "to come to think or judge." To "deem a ball lost" is an act of judgement that must be performed by a player based on the criteria set out in the rules.

Look, I don't want to get into a semantics-fest here, because your original post was fine and I was not trying to correct you, but was trying to emphasize people can't deem a ball lost. It came off as me correcting you, sorry, not the intent. My intent was just to point out that a player can't deem a ball lost.

You then said the rules disagree with me that "you" can't deem a ball lost, and on that, you're wrong. A player - a referee, even - doesn't ever "deem" a ball lost. The rules do given a situation. FourPutt agreed with me and said essentially the same thing to you that I did - that no person ever "deems" a ball lost in golf. The rules do. You were fine in your first post, so let's stick to what you said there. [/semantics discussion] I hope the OP is satisfied with the answers he got. Wish he'd stopped back to answer the pertinent questions about where the player dropped and whether the long grass was within the "natural" boundary of the hazard.

[Fourputt]

"Deem" is not simply a synonym for "declare". Merriam-Webster.com defines it as "to come to think or judge." To "deem a ball lost" is an act of judgement that must be performed by a player based on the criteria set out in the rules. I never used the word otherwise, and this whole argument over the use of a simple word could have been avoided if that word had been properly understood rather than assumed to mean something it didn't.

You need to keep in mind that Meriam Webster doesn't always do a very good job of defining terms under the context of the Rules of Golf. Just accept that in this case, the ball is deemed lost under the rules as a result of the player's action of putting another ball in play. It is not a judgment, but an action taken by the player to define a finite moment in time when the ball is deemed lost.

[Ignorant]

Just picking up one issue from this thread:

I was wondering, isn't a dropped ball already in play even if the player had not made a stroke at that ball? After all, the Rules allow a player to drop another ball and apply Rule 27-1 at any time.

20-4.When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play
If the player’s ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when
dropped or placed.
A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped
or placed.
(Ball incorrectly substituted – see Rule 15-2)
(Lifting ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed – see Rule 20-6)

15-2. Substituted Ball
A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that
permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the
play of a hole .The substituted ball becomes the ball in play.