How to hit a fade and a draw

[Zeph]

Same thing. If he's not trying to hit the target, telling about it surely would help. In most cases we talk about hitting a target and how to accomplish this. Discussing this without the intention of hitting a target and not informing about it, it'll be an even bigger mess.

We have to be as accurate as possible. As someone mentioned, a person can swing the club in-to-out or out-to-in with the feet aligned square. That is of course fine, but then it has to be written.

If someone says they just open the clubface to hit a draw, how can we know that he is already swinging +4º and don't have to aim the feet to the right?

[kleraudio]

Messed around with this again, when trying to hit a draw off the tee, my target is 250 yards out, if I aim my feet line approx 50 yards to the right and my clubhead approx 25 yards to the right (of middle fairway) should the clubhead feel really closed?? It does for me and its weird, but is this how to accomplish this??

Jim

[Zeph]

Yes it should, because the clubhead is closed, relative to your body alignment, and your swing path. That is if your swing path is close to square of course.

With 250 to the target, aiming 50 and 25 yards right, you are aiming the body +12º and the clubhead +6º.

[kleraudio]

Thanks Zeph, is this really how the pros shape shots? Especially off the tee?

When I watch on tv, they are usually square to the middle of the fairway. Is it just the camera angle most of the time?

Thanks!

Jim

[Zeph]

Both. It can be the TV angle, or it can be that they swing in-to-out with square body alignment.

Like Kenny Perry. He swings +6º in-to-out. Meaning that if he align the body square to the target, his swing path will be 6º right of the target line. If the then gets the clubface somewhere around 2-4º open, he will hit a push-draw that starts out right and curve back towards the target.

I advocate a pretty square swing path, maybe a degree or two in-to-out. If your swing path match up with the body alignment (or feet), you can turn the body open or closed to get the proper swing path.

Regardless of how it looks on TV, how Tiger, Kenny Perry or Phil Mickelson does it, the ball flight rules always apply. You just have to find what angle your swing path is at and start working from there. Watching the pros on stuff like this can be confusing, especially if you listen to them too. Fact is that a lot of them say they do one thing, but in reality do something else. Like what has been taught through the years of golf. Aim the body where you want to start the ball and aim the clubface where you want the ball to land. Science has shown that this is wrong. That doesn't mean the pros don't align like that, most of them I'm sure do. But if they hit a draw or fade with that analogy, the impact positions does not mimic the address positions.

How you achieve the angles needed to curve the ball is up to you, the ball flight rules apply regardless of how it is done. Try forgetting what everyone has said on how to hit a draw and a fade, read up on the ball flight rules, I suggest this article on the subject . From there, figure out how you best can achieve these positions at impact.

[14ledo81]

How many amateurs actually hit push draws? IMO it is much easier to aim your body to the right and hit a straight draw.

[Zeph]

A push-draw is a shot starting right of the target and curving back towards the target. A straight-draw is a shot starting straight at the target and curving left of the target.

Look at the graphics further up in this thread.

[AndrewPI]

This thread has been a great help to me. Went up the range tonight and it meant I was able to understand why the ball was doing what it was doing.

[14ledo81]

A push-draw is a shot starting right of the target and curving back towards the target. A straight-draw is a shot starting straight at the target and curving left of the target.

I understand the difference the two. I meant it was easier to hit a draw (that ends up at the target) with body aligned to the right than body aligned at the target.

[iacas]

Like Kenny Perry. He swings +6º in-to-out.

Yeah, and he hits a big draw.

12 and 6 should look really closed. That's far too much for a standard shot unless the course has some massive dogleg you can swing the ball around. As for the pros, most of them hit a certain shot naturally. Maybe it's a cut from a square stance or maybe it's a draw from a square stance. Still others aim left and hit the ball right. They're just more consistent about it - Kenny Perry's stance is almost square but he delivers the club not on his foot line but a bit more from the inside to get his draw.

[MikeLowry5]

These are not other ways, they are just other ways to change the clubface and swingpath angle at impact.

So according to the chart, you would start with a closed stance and an open face for a draw and start open with a closed face for a fade?

[iacas]

So according to the chart, you would start with a closed stance and an open face for a draw and start open with a closed face for a fade?

A closed stance relative to the target and an open face relative to the target (but closed to the stance), yes.

An open stance relative to the target and a closed face relative to the target (but open to the stance), yes.

[kleraudio]

Thanks Erik, so 12 and 6 look pretty closed? Thats great news as it felt really really awkward...

What do you suggest like a 6 and 3?? That would seem a little more comfortable to look at. Im gonna mess around with that tomorrow.

Jim

[Zeph]

If you have an obstacle to hit around, you may have to stand as open or closed as 12º, but if you just want to shape the ball, you don't need to aim that far out.

On a 250 yard drive:

If you aim the body 50 yards right and clubface 25 yards right, +12º and +6º, the ball will move right to left by around 18-20 yards.
If you aim the body 25 yards right and clubface 12,5 yards right, +6º and +3º, the ball will move right to left by around 8-10 yards.

You adjust according to what you want to do. On a shaped shot to a wide open fairway, 3-10 yards movement is sufficient. If you want to go around an obstacle, like a tree, you obviously need the clubface outside or inside the tree. How much depending on how close it is. The amount of curve also depending on where it is located. If it's close to you, you just want to get the ball on the outside or inside and from there curve slightly towards the target. If the tree is further down, you might have to hit a larger curve to get the ball moving back towards the target later and at a greater angle. This will of course provide less distance.

If you want to shape a shot onto a wide open fairway, aim the clubface a few yards onto the fairway and the body a few degrees outside the clubface.

All of this is of course theoretical and you need to be in control of swing path and clubhead to have it working. Good ball striking is also preferable, a mishit on the clubface can open it up and change the angle at impact. Still, knowing exactly what it takes to hit a shot makes it far easier. Also being able to analyze the shot you just hit, knowing what happened, is valuable. With the old ball flight theory, you had to rely on yourself opening or closing the clubface during the swing, without trying to. Essentially, you had to develop a habit where the clubface is angled differently at impact than at address, but without wanting that to happen. The perfect way to be fighting yourself.

If anything, the now known ball flight physics makes curving shots far easier. Additionally to the part above, you aim the clubface closer to your stance than before. For me at least, the closer the clubface is to the body alignment, the more comfortable it feels hitting the shot.

[tm22721]

There are other ways also. One is to place the ball back a little more in the stance which will yeild a knock down draw (a great shot to know how to do).

That's the ONLY shot I know how to do. No fancy lateral shift or axis tilt required. Just aim a little right of the flag and punch it.

[Zeph]

I understand the difference the two. I meant it was easier to hit a draw (that ends up at the target) with body aligned to the right than body aligned at the target.

I won't say that any is easier than the other. As mentioned before, some have a swing with a "natural" (I prefer calling it "developed) out-to-in or in-to-out angle. Clearly Kenny Perry can hit the ball well, even with his +6º in-to-out swing. As I've understood however, he can't hit a fade. He probably can, but he'd have to aim the body so far left, it would probably mess up his head. I'm sure I've heard many times that he never tries to fade the ball, so he struggle on courses with right doglegs.

I advice having close to a square swing, perhaps a degree or two in-to-out. It's easier to switch between hitting draw to fade, making your game more versatile. Like Tiger Woods. He's really good at working the ball, high and low, right and left. How he does it, I won't discuss, as I've read many different versions, but his swing path is pretty close to square I belive. It would've been interesting to see stats on every PGA player from Trackman on things like angle of attack, both horizontal and vertical. Pretty much every stat Trackman can provide. I wonder if we could see a pattern there.

[MikeLowry5]

A closed stance relative to the target and an open face relative to the target (but closed to the stance), yes.

So my pull hooks are a result of a closed face and a body square or closed to the target. To correct this I should open up my stance a bit and/or open the face. Particularly if I wanted to start playing a face (hopefully a small one) I would work toward opening the stance while not worrying about closing off the club face like I do now?

Good stuff, thanks for putting this up. It's nice to have someone explain the cause/effect of the moves you make. By understanding how the swing works you are in a much better position to identify and correct flaws in your swing.

[iacas]

So my pull hooks are a result of a closed face and a body square or closed to the target.

Pull = ball starts left of target (or stance line). Hook = club path closed relative to the clubface.

Since the clubface is already closed relative to your stance line, you might be square or closed, yes. In general. your swing path is definitely closed relative to the clubface, yes. I don't like to make too many generalizations about individual swing. Tom Lehman hits from the inside quite a bit yet his stance is a little open. Lee Trevino aimed much farther left than his swing path at impact... I think as a baseline most people should have a square stance. They should fix their clubface at impact and see what kind of natural shot shape they play from there. Some will fade it (i.e. swing a bit out to in relative to their stance) and some (I suspect more if they're making good contact) will hit little draws.