Down swing hip movement.

[MPS67]

There seems to be some confusion on my part, and I believe others as well, in regards the correct method to employ the hips during the down swing. Some low handicappers on this forum are adamant that the hips are to slide forward as far as they can, while others claim that it's only necessary to bump or slide them forward a smaller amount and then rotate/spin them. I think it could be a matter of a poor choice of terminology on my part. So, I'd like to take an open approach to a new discussion on this very important move and maybe learn something.

I'm going to include, and analyze three videos in this post, labeled in sequence as videos A) "Tiger Woods Hip Clearance" , B , & C) "The All Important Left Hip - What does it do?" Again, I'm just a layman golfer who's attempting to learn from the vast wisdom from all of you much more knowledgeable golfers, so please be easy on me I'm very open minded, and am hoping we can all have a constructive debate/discussion on this matter so that I can better understand more about the correct method to use, play better, and enjoy, even more, the game we all love . So, I welcome your take, your understanding, and your criticism on my theories below, and on your own theories as well.

Thank you very much,
Mark (MPS67)

Video A. - Tiger Woods Hip Clearance


At 0:22 seconds, it appears that Tiger starts his downswing by moving his hips. His hips are parallel to the target line at 0:05s (hips at address,) and then again at 0:31s. The differences that I see between the the two frames (0:05 s vs 0:31s) are the following: 1)Tiger's hips are lower, kind of like he squatted. 2) His hips are farther back behind him, away from the ball. His butt cheeks appear to be up against the vertical mirror that Sean Clements uses for discussion in video B. 3) His knees caps are almost in the exact same position, indicating a lack of a right knee kick forward, towards the target. 4) It appears as though he rotated his left hip and left butt cheek up against mirror (which is parallel to the target line) and hinged about his right hip which simultaneously slid forward a few inches toward the target. So his hip girdle has moved forward and towards the target by a few inches (maybe 4" ) in a compound maneuver.
I believe Tiger contacts the ball at 0:36.5s. Between 0:31 and 0:36.5s it looks like he drives his hips up and around with his lead left hip higher than the following right hip. It's s though his tail bone is gliding on a small circular shaped rail that is inclined when looking from the down the line perspective. (i wish I knew how to post images ) Which physical mechanism he uses to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Is he using the muscles in and around his hips, thighs, or elsewhere to turn his hip girdle around and up? Is he pushing from the inside of his right foot and straitening out his right knee and leg in the direction of the target, and thus pushing his hips around? I'm not sure. By impact, I do notice that his left hip is up against the mirror in Sean's video. And I'd guess that he's between 35 to 40° open to the target line. This is what I understand as a hip clearing move.
By 0:44s, Tiger's belt buckle is protruding forward from the rest of his body and pointed right at the target. If you were to draw an imaginary line through his two hips, the line looks perpendicular to the target line (90° open) and horizontal to the ground. It seems like his right hip is rotating about a hinge located in the middle of his left posted thigh. By now, his upper torso has caught up to, and maybe passed, his hip girdle, rotationally wise.
From 0:44s to his end pose at 0:52s it seems like his upper torso pulls the the hips even more open (relative to the target line) to maybe 95°. His left hip is pulled back away from the target by a few inches (2 maybe?)

To summarize Tiger's hip actions IMHO, it appears that he at first, moves his hips forward and rotates them to about 0° (parallel with the target line) while keeping his tush up against Sean's mirror. This forward move seems to be about 4-6". Then he shifts his left hip up (but not anymore forward) while rotating his right hip forward and around until they are both equally forward. I don't think Tiger tries to spin his hips at the end, but believe that his upper torso momentum rotates them around a little more.

Video B - Hogan's Power Move - Sean Clement

In this video, Sean uses a vertical mirror that's behind hip and parallel to the target line. Sean emphasizes how important it is to keep some part of his tush up against this mirror during the down swing. Although his swing isn't exactly like Tiger's, I do see a lot of elements in Sean's swing which Tiger employs as well, i.e., the same compound hip slide and rotation leading to the impact zone. The same attention to keeping part of the tush up against the vertical mirror.

Video C - The All Important Left Hip - What does it do? - by Bobby Eldridge


I've included this video because it shows what Bobby E. thinks is a flaw, and that is sliding the hips forward as far as possible toward the target and allowing the hip turn to occur naturally. Bobby shows this flaw at 1:23s. If you look at his left hip, It has started to open a little bit (maybe 5-10°), But then look at where his left hip is in relationship to his left foot. Too far forward in my opinion. It doesn't seem that his hips can turn any more around at this point. And I'm sure his butt cheeks are well off of Sean's mirror. Compare the video from 1:59s to 2:01s.

[iacas]

I'm not sure why we have a new thread on this. Did you read my big thread on sliding the hips? My response may be brief - but it's a busy day and I've already typed a fair amount on this topic.

Some low handicappers on this forum are adamant that the hips are to slide forward as far as they can, while others claim that it's only necessary to bump or slide them forward a smaller amount and then rotate/spin them.

To be clear: the "slide" happens in conjunction with a turn. The first move down is often purely slide, and after that, it's sliding and turning. The left hip always be moving forward -

while rotating - through impact and even a bit past it. It's the fully extended left leg that lets a golfer finish his turn.

Video A. - Tiger Woods Hip Clearance

Bad angle, but even in this video you can see how Tiger's left hip continues to push forward. Nobody's said they slide forward without turning.

Similar angle was used here:

Video C - The All Important Left Hip - What does it do? - by Bobby Eldridge

I've already said I think this is a terrible video. Just because something's on YouTube doesn't mean it's right. I've never seen a golfer do what he demonstrates, and yes, having your butt push towards the ball like he does at 2:03 or so is bad, yes. That's not what I'm prescribing, and not what anyone means when they say that the hips have to continue to push forward (target).

[Zeph]

That Eldrigde video is stupid. Watch his head when he shows how the "weekend golfer" slide the hips forward. It moves one head to the right (his left). You can't hit the ball well with the head moving forward like that. Every good golfer slide the hips, and of course turn. Difference between what Eldrigde showed and what the pros do, is they keep the head fairly still horisontally. Some got a small horisontal movement forward, some none, some slightly backward. You never see anyone moving as much forward as Eldrigde shows. Sliding the hips as far as possible while keeping the head from moving forward is what the pros do.

How do you get the weight forward if you don't move the hips forward? Do what he says, and you'll be on your back foot at the finish.

Quite contrary to what he says, the weekend golfer doesn't slide the hips enough, or let the head move too.

[MPS67]

I'm not sure why we have a new thread on this. Did you read my big thread on sliding the hips? My response may be brief - but it's a busy day and I've already typed a fair amount on this topic.

I started a new thread because I'm not yet sure that I want to slide the hips as far forward as you're suggesting. At the moment, I'm getting better results, and with what seems like more power, if I follow Sean's and Bobby E.'s methods. But even so, I'm open minded on this topic and would learn more. Perhaps I'm not using correct fundamentals, and therefore, an unable to achieve success using what the suggested method in your hip slide thread.

To be clear: the "slide" happens in conjunction with a turn. The first move down is often purely slide, and after that, it's sliding and turning. The left hip always be moving forward -

Thanks Erik. I now have a better understanding of what you've been describing.

That Eldrigde video is stupid. Watch his head when he shows how the "weekend golfer" slide the hips forward. It moves one head to the right (his left). You can't hit the ball well with the head moving forward like that. Every good golfer slide the hips, and of course turn. Difference between what Eldrigde showed and what the pros do, is they keep the head fairly still horisontally. Some got a small horisontal movement forward, some none, some slightly backward. You never see anyone moving as much forward as Eldrigde shows. Sliding the hips as far as possible

I agree with everything you wrote. Good point in regards to the head moving forward. I suppose Bobby loses a lot of built up torso torque if he allows the head to move so much.

I do want to point out that both Bobby & Sean seem to get their weight shifted to the their front, posted foot. So, I don't think that using either of their techniques will leave the golfer hanging back on the back leg. Here's an image with some drawn in vertical lines, showing their face on positions. Hey Zeph, I see that you live in Norway What a nice country with beautiful fjords!!! My mom used to live in Flekkefjord when she was younger. Toosen tak for your help

[tm22721]

With all due respect to you low handicappers...

My personal experience is that stretching my muscles in the backswing against a resistant right leg is the first of two very important swing keys. A muscle must be stretched in the backswing before I can expect it to pull in the downswing.

Second swing thought - if I literally snap rotate my hips just BEFORE the top, those muscles are incrementally stretched in the overlap...

The downswing itself is automatic I am completely passive just along for the ride which is a good thing because it is only 3-4 tenths of a second not enough time to think or manipulate. My muscles PULL me into secondary axis tilt with a pronounced squat, maximum lag then peak velocity at impact. My left hip socket winds up over the left heel. From the top my left hip rotates 11-12" to the rear and 1-2" toward the target. If I take a video from the front it appears that there is a lot more left hip movement to the target but that is an optical illusion because my hip is mostly rotating around to the rear NOT MATERIALLY TOWARD THE TARGET.

IMO lateral hip movement is an effect, not a cause. If I really stttrretttcch those muscles they do the hard work for me.

Everybody is built different so what works for me may not apply to you. Here is a set of graphics showing Hogan's hip movements created by a physician who studies biokinetics of the golf swing.

Hogans Hip Movement

He describes in the fourth graphic "the feeling is that the whole pelvis goes to the South-West as the golfer wants to sit on a high bar stool with his lead buttock". I never feel that move happening at the top of the backswing but I know that it does from video. I think that involuntary move is a result of the right leg (at an acute angle in Hogans case) resisting the coil. There's where your lateral move really occurs - it is with the right hip in the backswing, not the left hip in the downswing !

[Zeph]

My personal experience is that stretching my muscles in the backswing against a resistant right leg is the first of two very important swing keys. A muscle must be stretched in the backswing before I can expect it to pull in the downswing.

There is no way the stretched muscles can complete the swing by themselves. If you rotate to the top of the backswing and go completely limp, the body won't unwind itself and hit the ball. You have to use the muscles and body to force it forward. Only reason it happens automatically for you is because you've done it so many times that the muscles know what do to.

My left hip socket winds up over the left heel. From the top my left hip rotates 11-12" to the rear and 1-2" toward the target. If I take a video from the front it appears that there is a lot more left hip movement to the target but that is an optical illusion because my hip is mostly rotating around to the rear NOT MATERIALLY TOWARD THE TARGET.

The hips won't move laterally if you don't tell them to. Winding up the muscles will give them tension, but they won't move forward. I don't see how you can call it an optical illusion when you can see on every swing video of the PGA pros that the hip has moved significantly forward. Not instead of rotating, but combined with rotating. You can also see the hips are slightly open on most videos at impact.

He describes in the fourth graphic "the feeling is that the whole pelvis goes to the South-West as the golfer wants to sit on a high bar stool with his lead buttock". I never feel that move happening at the top of the backswing but I know that it does from video. I think that involuntary move is a result of the right leg (at an acute angle in Hogans case) resisting the coil. There's where your lateral move really occurs - it is with the right hip in the backswing, not the left hip in the downswing !

Hogan said a lot of things, but he went primarily by how he felt it himself. That is one person telling us how he felt, he didn't have access to the high tech equipment of today. Ask a golfer, any golfer, to explain the positions of their body during the swing. I'll bet you most will be far off, unless they already video taped it. Hogan is talking about feel and things that "happen". That won't explain much and certainly won't help learning how to play golf. You can't learn a feeling, you have to experience the

correct movement so many times that it becomes a feeling and the muscles can remember it.

[tm22721]

There is no way the stretched muscles can complete the swing by themselves.

You are correct. It takes the combination of stretched muscles

plus a snap of the hips to propel the downswing.

[iacas]

My personal experience is that stretching my muscles in the backswing against a resistant right leg is the first of two very important swing keys.

What in tarnation is a "resistant right leg?" Hogan's right leg straightened and his right hip rotated back quite a bit. The X Factor's bull, and even McLean will tell you that... so I don't know what you mean by a resistant right leg.

The downswing itself is automatic I am completely passive just along for the ride which is a good thing because it is only 3-4 tenths of a second not enough time to think or manipulate.

Sure it is. It's plenty of time to think of something and do it. And no, you're not completely passive - you've just trained your muscles to do something.

My left hip socket winds up over the left heel.

The better players in the get their left hip socket in front of their left heel, particularly if their left foot is flared at all. Not much or you'd likely fall over, but there's a noticeable outward bend from foot to hips to head (even without a beer belly).

From the top my left hip rotates 11-12" to the rear and 1-2" toward the target. If I take a video from the front it appears that there is a lot more left hip movement to the target but that is an optical illusion because my hip is mostly rotating around to the rear NOT MATERIALLY TOWARD THE TARGET.

I disagree that it's an optical illusion. Tiger's hip moves forward eight inches even with a 9-iron. Hogan's moved forward just as much (which is part of the reason why such a small guy could hit it so far).

Furthermore, and I'm not sure where you said it, but the hip slide is what adds the secondary axis tilt. It's not the hip rotation.

Here is a set of graphics showing Hogan's hip movements created by a physician who studies biokinetics of the golf swing.

Easy to disprove that theory - his axis of rotation is wrong. Hogan's left hip doesn't move towards the golf ball on the takeaway. His axis of rotation has it moving quite a bit towards the golf ball in the takeaway because his axis of rotation is well centered. Hogan's hip movement was the right hip moving away from the golf ball (and up) - he pivoted around his left hip.

That's the problem with Shawn Clement's drill, too. Hogan's right butt cheek would have passed through the mirror, not slid along it.

[MPS67]

Thanks for the link tm22721. I'll be sure to review!

That's the problem with Shawn Clement's drill, too. Hogan's right butt cheek would have passed through the mirror, not slid along it.

I don't know Erik. Please take a look at the following image of both Hogan & Tiger up against this imaginary mirror. It doesn't look like either of them pass through it from address to contact.

[iacas]

I don't know Erik.

Yeah, your butt's rounded (less so than your front hip). I guess I was picturing it as a rectangle or something. Plus, you're reducing three inches down to a a few pixels.

The point I'm trying to make is that the pivot point on the backswing is more towards the left hip joint than the right, and on the downswing it's more towards the right hip joint than the left, which also pushes forward (which also moves the tailbone and left hip joint forward). In other words, it's backwards of what you seem to believe. The right leg straightens on the backswing - exaggerate it by bending the knees and hips a LOT and try to turn around your right hip on a backswing while also straightening your right leg. Good luck! Talk about awkward (and/or impossible). Like Butch (who has a lot more experience than me), I've yet to see a swing from a guy who pushes forward too far and who under-rotates. If there are people out there, I'm 100% confident it's rare as all get out. People who push forward tend to draw and hook the ball, and we know how rare that is to begin with.

[DBeane]

I think Clements explanation of the hip movement in the swing is one of the best I've seen/ heard. The mirror drill is a good one to get the sensation of how the hips work (true, some players would push the mirror back slightly, but its still a good drill). I have never liked the idea of conciously trying to "slide" your hips (like the McLean hip bump drill always seemed like he was on the right track, but not exactly sure how to explain it) . However, the lateral movement that you get from a correct pivot is ideal (that always made much more sense to me).

-Beane

[iacas]

I have one final comment for this thread. Well, a multi-part comment.

1) Feel isn't always real. Ben Hogan "felt" like he did nothing but bump and turn, but his bump was large and he continued to push forward with the hips through and past impact. Your feel isn't necessarily spot on, either. Just ask someone where they feel their swing stops on the backswing if you want to see how far off you can be.

2) A good or great golfer's head is behind or even with the ball at impact, which is over or even slightly back of the middle of their stance, yet 80 to 90% of their weight is on their left side at impact . It's not getting there with rotation of the hips - it's getting there with a push of the tailbone forward. Look at pros at impact - force plates will tell you where their weight is at impact - on their front foot. Heck, if it weren't for their head staying back, it might be closer to 95% or more. If you do nothing but turn your hips, you aren't getting 90% of your weight on your front foot at impact. If you "bump" an inch or two, you aren't getting 90% of your weight on your front foot at impact.

Carry on. I'm out. Good luck!

[tm22721]

Like I said my swing may not apply to everybody it takes a lot of backswing stretch which is hard work.

Do whatever works consistently for you .

[Zeph]

Have you ever recorded your swing tm22721? Would be interesting to see if you do exactly the same as we are talking about, just explaining it differently. It's pretty much why we got thousands of swing tips out there. Most good golfers swing the same way, but everyone explain it differently. Most explain it wrong relative to what actually happens.