Differences Between Driver Swing and Iron Swing (Driver Swing vs. Iron Swing Master Thread)

[iacas]

Way to make your response "nice"...

What he meant to say was that the best players, on average, hit the ball on the downswing ever so slightly (-1.3 degrees).

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...-Tour-vs.-LPGA You don't "have" to hit down on the ball. Good players do more than they hit up on the ball, though.

[iacas]

Way to make your response "nice"...

What he meant to say was that the best players, on average, hit the ball on the downswing ever so slightly (-1.3 degrees).

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...-Tour-vs.-LPGA You don't "have" to hit down on the ball. Good players do more than they hit up on the ball, though.

[JohnQVegas]

I will concede that the PGA tour players hit their drivers at a negative attack angle. However, they are swinging the club at speeds higher than most average golfers. Even if you look at the LPGA chart, their attack angle is positive 3.0 deg, and they are still pros. So wouldnt you make the assumption that if LPGA pros are hitting on the upswing, than most weekend golfers would be also?

[gir]

I bought into the hit down method after reading the Clampett book and it messed up my driver swing. When getting fit for a driver we found that I hit down with an attack angle of -3 degrees on average. As a result my spin numbers were ridiculous, as high as 6,000 rpms. Optimal spin for me they said was 2700 rpms. The high spin hurt my distance big time. I got fitted into a low spin low launch driver which improved spin to 4000 rpms, which is still high.

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/art...381-14,00.html

^^On that page you can see the results of a study done with many golfers summed up in a table that shows the effects of angle of attack on distance for a range of swing speeds. -5 produced the lowest distance, and +5 produced the most distance.

[JohnQVegas]

I bought into the hit down method after reading the Clampett book and it messed up my driver swing. When getting fit for a driver we found that I hit down with an attack angle of -3 degrees on average. As a result my spin numbers were ridiculous, as high as 6,000 rpms. Optimal spin for me they said was 2700 rpms. The high spin hurt my distance big time. I got fitted into a low spin low launch driver which improved spin to 4000 rpms, which is still high.

So, in short Mr. "You are wrong", I was NOT wrong. I doubt a guy asking for help on a golf forum is hitting it at PGA pro levels, so yes, he WOULD be wanting to hit it on the upswing.

[JML22]

I think it really matters on your setup and swing
some people prob have more control on down and up and what not so it varies.
I know if i hit on a severe up i lose control

[McGolf-Doggie]

Then, in a parallel universe, and forgetting about accuracy for a moment, you've got your Long Drivers of America who like to "tee it high and let it fly." They definitely tee it up so they can catch it on the upswing.

Had the pleasure of playing with with one of the military long drive competitors, a Coast Guard Petty Officer, for several holes and trying out the demo equipment cart clubs he brought along during an event this summer at West Point. It was eye opening and mind-opening to say the least.

We used his "end-of-day/tired" club, of course. That was a lot of fun. Score was not as important as fun for our group, but in a best ball tournament, at least one of us was going to find the fairway with it, and a lot further down than usual.

Here's a pretty random excerpt from a piece on the subject at dfwsmartgolfer.com, and there's so much more research out there if long drives are anyone's interest -- whether just for fun, curiosity, or thrills.

"All in all, I didn’t see anything particularly different between this senior and open division, except that the seniors have more control at the expense of some It became obvious that these straight ball hitters (or knuckle ball artist) prefer to keep the ball
from rising with back spin, and the best of them keep it lower in trajectory as well. They play the ball forward in their stance and try to hit the ball as far as possible by hitting it on the upswing with low lofted (4 to 7 degree) drivers. This essentially
puts only enough spin to hold it airborne and creates the solid low spin needed to prevent risers."

http://www.dfwsmartgolfer.com/featured_1.html

and

http://www.probablegolfinstruction.c...calculator.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_drive

http://www.longdrivers.com/

just to name a few.

So why do PGA players on average hit it around 1 degree down? I'm guessing, they are likely doing what they do, the way they do it -- per the stats Iacas cited -- more to maintain consistency in their swing and accuracy. They use higher lofted drivers than the long drive fellas, and so can afford to hit down a bit and still get a long penetrating flight. (LD lofts are real low, but the launch angle is higher because of their higher angle of attack.)

Pretty sure most of them have the club speed to hit a long and XXXS shafted driver a long way, but they don't want the long mistakes that come with that territory. Like into the next fairway and then some. Won't win them any PGA events/money, but it floats their boat.



Here's a photo I took of one of the guy's drive results for posterity, looking back up from the ball toward the tee box, somewhere in the deep distance.

[CalBoomer]

What he meant to say was that the best players, on average, hit the ball on the downswing ever so slightly (-1.3 degrees).

This is getting a bit dicey. Do we assume from the "data" that LPGA golfers aren't among the best players. Without data, I would dare say that the top women pros outplay 99% of the folks on this forum. Should all of us amateurs aim for exactly the same standards as the best men pros with their extreme swing speeds? Or to get more technical, what is the standard deviation of that minuscule -1.3* average attack angle. Simple statistics would argue that even the best players probably hit the ball with a positive attack angle a fair percentage of the time. Making a strong suggestion to amateurs that they should be hitting "down" with their driver, when many of them are fitted with 14* clubs does not exactly make a lot of sense.

[gir]

Here's the thing imo - just because pro's hit down with the driver doesn't necessarily mean they are hitting it optimally in regards to distance. In a related article I was reading, they noted that Tiger and JB Holmes had similar numbers such as swing speed, but differed in their angle of attack. Tiger hit driver with about a -3 angle of attack. JB Holmes hit driver with a +3 angle of attack. As a result, Holmes drove it further.

http://www.lifeintherough.com/2009/0...ver-yet-again/

[Zeph]

Though you can't make a rule out of it, the general idea is that more spin give more carry, but less roll. Less spin give less carry, but more roll. Overall, the latter option is probably the longest.

The question is if you need to hit the ball 310 vs 290 yards. The PGA pros are exceptional athletes, they can swing a left handed driver right handed and still hit it 300 yards. The problem with telling a high handicapper to "hit up" and "weight back for driver", is that they end up with most of the weight on the back foot. Now they got flipping, hitting the ground behind the ball, 25º launch angle etc. That is the problem with "hit up", it is so hard to feel whether you are hitting -2º or +2º that most will exaggerate it and hit +10º. Getting the clubhead past the hands can also make you less accurate. Hitting the ball flag, at 0º is what I'm trying to do. If anything, I'd rather be hitting slightly down on the ball. The loft, shaft and type of driver also makes a difference, so a driver you hit +3º AoA with might not work as well if you hit it -1º. You will find guys with a negative angle of attack hitting it 300 yards, and you will find guys with a positive angle of attack hitting it 300 yards. Phil Mickelson hit it on the way down, I would not mind having his distance.

Making a strong suggestion to amateurs that they should be hitting "down" with their driver, when many of them are fitted with 14* clubs does not exactly make a lot of sense.

Why not? The more loft on your driver, the more I would recommend hitting down on it. If you hit +6º, an 8º driver might work better. If you hit up with a 14º driver, the ball will launch close to 20º.

[keiko]

I have some doubts as to the accuracy of the -1.3 degree stats for pro's. Those who have negative angle of impact also use higher lofted drivers for control but they still hit it a long way due to their ability to hit it flush with the right equipment and timing. Most of us are not pro's at that level and need all the help we can get therefore taking me for example at a handicap of 3-4 for the past several years, I use a 48" XX shafted 7 degree driver and swing it at 110 mph. My spin rate is 2,600 and my carry is 275-280+depending on south florida wind speeds. My impact angle is +2-3 and my launch angle is 12-14.
At age 65, I outdrive 95% of folks I play with regardless of age and I am usually in the fairway watching them play first from the trees.

[saevel25]

I don't believe swing speed has anything to do with it. The average swing speed for the LPGA is greater than equal to 21% of the average swing speeds on the PGA tour. I don't think that 79% of the PGA tour can create a 4.3 degree difference in driver. I just think its swing types, and maybe a difference in how woman and men swing the golf club than swing speed. Look at the rest of the clubs, there is a bigger difference in swing speed between LPGA and PGA for the irons with less of a change in angle of attack.

I am not saying that you should or should not have a positive or negative attack, but your generalization that you must have a positive angle of attack is wrong. I think the assumption that its because of swing speeds is wrong as well.

[iacas]

This is getting a bit dicey. Do we assume from the "data" that LPGA golfers aren't among the best players. Without data, I would dare say that the top women pros outplay 99% of the folks on this forum.

What largely matters there is swing speed. LPGA golfers need to maximize distance a bit more than the guys - their tradeoffs are different. A ball hit on the upswing will tend to carry farther but will not be as easily controlled. Among other things, it will tend to be a ball strike from out to in and with a left wrist that's not flat and a handle that's even with or slightly behind the ball.

Simple statistics would argue that even the best players probably hit the ball with a positive attack angle a fair percentage of the time.

No it wouldn't. Swings of PGA Tour players are pretty consistent. Someone who averages -1.3 probably sees a 95% confidence interval of +/- 1 degree or so.

Overall, the latter option is probably the longest.

Maybe 52% of the time. It's simply too complex an issue to break it down like that. Slow swingers want to maximize carry for distance, higher speed swingers tend to want to minimize spin and still maximize carry. PGA Tour players don't want their drivers rolling out - they want as much of their distance through the air as possible, so their ball doesn't run through fairways, etc.

I have some doubts as to the accuracy of the -1.3 degree stats for pro's.

I don't. Additionally I've seen the individual stats of enough good players as well as Tour players to know that many more hit down slightly than up slightly. None of them are really outside of about 4 degrees in either direction.

[saevel25]

Well, i remember golf digest did an article about spin on ball versus loft on the driver. They found that for slower swing speeds a higher loft is more beneficial, while a higher swing speed its all about minimizing spin on the ball.

So really, wouldn't it be easier to just keep the same swing for the 7iron and driver and just get a driver with a higher loft. Then you don't have to think about having two swings.

[bustaone]

It's like the difference between a lob shot and a chop shot in tennis/pingpong/whatever.. Or a 2 seam fastball vs a 4 seam fastball.

Backspin creates negative pressure on top of the ball as it travels forward through the air which DOES create lift.

If you can get lift from the backspin you can hit it lower and it will stay out of the wind currents... Hence being much more controllable.

Sure you can mash it at an upwards angle with a low loft club... But nobody should be hitting knuckleballs, especially up into the active wind currents... I'm a terrible golfer, but the physics of it is pretty straightforward.

[olimits7]

Hi,

Irons:

With my irons I use a 2-3 knuckle grip, and use an upright swing plane.  I hit my irons pretty good straight down the fairway with no slice/hook.

Driver:

With my driver I need to use a 3-4 knuckle grip, and I use an upright swing plane but not as high/steep as with my irons.  With a 3-4 knuckle grip I hit my driver pretty good straight down the fairway with no slice/hook.  However, if I were to use a 2-3 knuckle grip like my irons I would then end up slicing the ball with my driver.

So my question is what would be different between my driver and irons swing when I use a 2-3 knuckle grip that causes my driver to slice, but not my irons?  Why wouldn't a 2-3 knuckle grip not work with my driver as well?

Thank you,

olimits7

[threejack]

I always hear that the two swings should be the same. But if I swing my driver like an iron I definitely don't get the club head speed necessary for my stiff shaft. I also slice the crap out of it. I feel like there is definitely a difference in the two swings, can anyone give me some insight on what parts are the same and what parts are different?

Thanks!

[BIGTRUFFLE]

The swing should always stay the same no matter what the club is. The only change you need to make between the woods and irons is in the set-up. The ball for a driver should be positioned on the inner edge of the left foot at address, and the weight should favour the right leg slightly, say 40/60. The stance should be a couple of inches wider than your shoulder width. For a full iron shot the weight should always be 50/50 and for a mid iron (6 or 7) the ball should be positioned an inch left of centre in the stance. You should stand shoulder width apart. The longer the iron the further left the ball should be placed in the stance and your stance should become wider relatively. (or narrower stance and ball positioned further right for short irons).

I don't want to jump to conclusions but the slice may be caused by having the wrong set up for a wood.