This Week's Thrash Talk

[Rafcin]

I just think it's crazy to DQ someone from a tournament when they were one number off on a scorecard. Hell, didn't someone get DQed for signing someone else's scorecard by accident?

as a matter of fact it was two players who got canned a couple years back - they didn't exchange their scorecards and co-signed their own or something like that.

Why isn't it crazy IMHO - because you can't simply say 'there is no penalty for submitting an incorrect score'. Signature makes it official. You can't start adding "if's" and "but's" and create a list of 10001231 examples where signing incorrect score is actually permissible

[iacas]

Or definately stop writing about it as unfortunately there's nothing really to discuss with the points that youve brought up (especially the signing the scorecard issue) because they are so removed from the spirit that they are trying to enforce. Using the excuse that you're not trying to make everyone happy is fine if you can actually demonstrate that you have a firm grasp of the subject at hand which you are trying to discuss.

There are, James, better ways to disagree. Or certainly ways that don't come off as hostile. I don't agree with any of Cody's proposed rules changes, but my response on his article was probably a bit more, uhm, "constructive" than telling a guy to take up another sport. There are different ways to love the game of golf (even if you are technically playing something not golf by not following the rules of golf

).

1. I think it's pretty obvious when a ball ends up in a fairway divot and when it's just an old patch of grass or something.

It's not. At what point does a divot that's begun to grow back cease to become a divot?

3. Signing the wrong scorecard is pretty self-explanatory. A player shouldn't be disqualified for signing the incorrect scorecard. At the very least, a penalty or something should be enforced. To DQ someone entirely is absurd. This one wouldn't take any extra interpretation.

Cody, I would expect you of all people to stand up for a golfer's

responsibility to be personally accountable for his score. Signing his scorecard is the way we do that in golf. It's not just about tradition. And, as I said in the comments on the article, technical glitches happen. The golfer's scorecard, rudimentary though it is, is what matters. The rest is just entertainment.

Signing the incorrect scorecard has nothing to do with how well a golfer played on the course that day. You are the one that said golf is a battle between golfer and the course. The golfer shouldn't have to battle the scorecard as well.

He's not battling the scorecard. Hell, they don't even have to add up the numbers - just count to 2, 3, 4, or 5 most of the time.

We "sign" our articles at The Sand Trap to say "this is what I think" or "this is what I wrote." It's the same with signing your scorecard. It's the way a golfer says "yes, I did this, and by signing, I hereby attest to it."

If I shoot a 70, but I put a 71 on the scorecard, I shouldn't be DQed.

You wouldn't be. You'd be given the higher score. Furthermore, golfers are only responsible for their individual hole scores. You can write down "59" all you want in the "Total" box - it's the job of the committee to add up your score. You're responsible only for your individual hole scores. Look it up.

If I shoot a 70 and put a 69 on the scorecard, penalize me a stroke or two for my wrongdoings (making it a 72 instead). But to DQ someone completely is a little ridiculous.

Again, you can't be DQed for adding incorrectly. This is perhaps my biggest complaint about the article - that you're speaking on topics you don't seem to understand. To quote rule 33-5:

In stroke play, the Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and the application of the handicap recorded on the score card.

And it's not the end of the world if none get changed. It won't make much of a difference for me because I play only for fun. I just think the technology and times have left some of the rules in the dust. There is nothing wrong with being a little old school and new school.

No, but there is something wrong with changing rules that are in place for certain reasons. I think that's what James is getting at.

[jamesduncan]

There are, James, better ways to disagree. Or certainly ways that don't come off as hostile. I don't agree with any of Cody's proposed rules changes, but my response on his article was probably a bit more, uhm, "constructive" than telling a guy to take up another sport. There are different ways to love the game of golf (even if you are technically playing something not golf by not following the rules of golf

hey, if someone wants to write an article about golf and have it published (yes a website like this counts certainly counts ), they better be able to take whatever comments, constructive or un constructive, come their way. heck, how many times have i read on here that "this commentators a boob/ass/idiot" etc etc ? but one of the reasons i didnt comment on the article itself was out of respect for Cody's piece and his opinion and this site in general. but on a messsage board where people in the golf media are routinely "routed", he's just getting his share. Hey, comes with the territory. but granted, once he got over his intial reaction to my response, i was very impressed by his efforts to stand up for his piece and stand by his point of view. that shows hes putting in the effort to think through his opinion before writing it and that in itself is commendable. Even if i dont agree with him in the least but im not going to treat him with kid gloves tho cause it was a very well written piece, just wrong thats all

[iacas]

but im not going to treat him with kid gloves tho cause it was a very well written piece, just wrong thats all

You're missing the point, and that point is that if you want to convince someone of something, there may be better ways to respond. That's all I'm saying.

[jamesduncan]

hmm you might have missed my point too.

im wasnt trying to convince him (or anyone) of anything. i just aired my views.

thats different than engaging him into a conversation.

granted once he started discussing the points he raised, after graciously taking my rant on the chin (kudos), i did try to change my tone.

but yeah, i wasnt trying to convince anyone (initally anyways) to come over to my point of view.

im perfectly fine knowing full well that im simply right in this instance


cheers

[Thrash13]

It's not. At what point does a divot that's begun to grow back cease to become a divot?

I'm still not budging on this one. I don't even play the nicest courses in the world, but it's still quite obvious to me. To each his own though.

Cody, I would expect you of all people to stand up for a golfer's

I do expect people to keep up with their scorecards (obviously scorecards will never be thrown out the window) because I surely would, but that doesn't mean a DQ for a small mistake is in order. Humans do make mistakes as well. They should face a penalty, but not a disqualification.

Again, you can't be DQed for adding incorrectly. This is perhaps my biggest complaint about the article - that you're speaking on topics you don't seem to understand.

That's why I said I needed to go back and read the entire rules of golf in its entirety. It's quite easy to miss out on a rule or two here and there and not even realize it. Obviously it happens to quite a few pros along the way.

I'm done here. I've obviously said my piece enough already. Some will like it, and some won't. However, just because some don't agree doesn't necessarily mean they are right. It doesn't mean I am right either. That's why we have opinions.

[LarryK]

it's nuts. To say it's out of control is an understatement...

This is my main complaint with the rules of golf. The problem is not so much whether an individual rule is or is NOT "stupid", etc. (although as we've seen in this thread alone, much debate exists on this subject as well).

The problem is that many of the rules, as written, are not intuitively obvious as to how they should be applied to even some common situations. Case in point, Jonathan Byrd. The rule he violated (13-4) says that a player shall not "test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard". It says almost nothing about what actions may or may not constitute testing the condition of a hazard (other than preventing yourself from falling down. Okay, well, thanks for that ). It could have. But it doesn't. So the vagueness of the rule itself leaves us open to the apparent contradictions of logic that actually occur. Taking a stance away from the ball and making practice swings constitute an illegal "testing of conditions". Taking a stance over the ball and digging your feet into the sand so that (in addition to getting good traction) you can feel the relative resistance of the sand so that you may adjust your swing accordingly is perfectly fine. Does this remind anyone else, as it does me, of our legal system; where the actual legislative statutes frequently mean very little until a judge or two makes a ruling. Statute law and case law. Can't have one without the other. So it seems to be with the rules of golf. Meanwhile, I officiated ice hockey for over 11 years without a second guidebook detailing the "decisions on the rules of hockey." Never heard anyone even suggest such a thing. And before lecturing me on the immense complexity of hitting a ball forward along the ground with a stick, understand that all I am saying is that a much better job of writing the 174-page document could and should have substantially reduced the size and need for the 774-page document. That is ALL I am arguing here.

[Madriver]

question to all in this very interesting thread. Do you apply what are basically PGA Tournament rules (i.e signing scorecard) to your everyday hacker golf game? I mean does everyone here apply a strict adherance of the rules (every rule) to his or hers weekend game? I can see this during tournaments and championships, but when it comes to your regular weekely game do you really follow every rule? My point is that I find it interesting agruing about rules that have no real effect on the average golfers game.

[iacas]

question to all in this very interesting thread. Do you apply what are basically PGA Tournament rules (i.e signing scorecard) to your everyday hacker golf game?

Tournament rules are, for the most part, the same thing as our regular rules. The PGA Tour has other local rules in place concerning grandstands, the one-ball rule, etc. but otherwise the rules are the rules.

I mean does everyone here apply a strict adherance of the rules (every rule) to his or hers weekend game? I can see this during tournaments and championships, but when it comes to your regular weekely game do you really follow every rule? My point is that I find it interesting agruing about rules that have no real effect on the average golfers game.

Yes, I follow every rule. We (the guys I play with and I) don't sign our scorecards at the end of the round, but we post them into the GHIN computer after logging in, which is effectively the same thing.

[jamesduncan]

Personally i try to follow the rules that pertain to the play on the course on most every round i play.

so that entails: playing out of divots, bad/unraked lies in bunkers, not grounding clubs in hazards, hitting 3 off the tee, penalty if the ball moves on the green after address etc etc.

basically anything that is laid out in the rule book (which I carry with me)

Now if my playing partners violate rules during a friendly round, Im not gonna call them on it, but if the topic comes up, Id deff have a casual conversation about the ruling in question and how they violated it.

Now if Im playing my regular weekend nassau, we outline any rules for the day, if needed, before we hit our drives.

with one playing partner, we do infact sign our cards at the end of the match.

and it should be noted, that the only way, even in a casual round, that a pro shop would accept a new course record is with a fully signed and attested card.

[Madriver]

Tournament rules are, for the most part, the same thing as our regular rules. The PGA Tour has other local rules in place concerning grandstands, the one-ball rule, etc. but otherwise the rules are the rules.

...so you're telling me that if your buddy walks into a sand trap and swings his club before he takes a stance you would call him on it?

[Madriver]

Personally i try to follow the rules that pertain to the play on the course on most every round i play.

...I gotta tell ya...personally if anybody goes into a bunker and takes a practice swing and addresses the ball or if you ball moves a half of an inch anywhere on the course or if you forget to remark a moved mark on the green ...I could give a rats ass. If you break a rule like saying you had a four when you had a five I may take issue with it...otherwise I have no pretense that I am anything but a hacker out to have a good time. While I don't disregard the rules, I think I and most of us weekend duffers are not Tour Pros.

[Thrash13]

...so you're telling me that if your buddy walks into a sand trap and swings his club before he takes a stance you would call him on it?

99.9% of my rounds are leisure rounds. I rarely play competitive golf.

I definitely wouldn't call my friend out on the penalty. Honestly, I could care less what my friends shoot because I'm only worried about what I'm doing. Like jamesduncan said, I'd probably have a conversation about the penalty on the way to the next tee box or something, but I wouldn't call a penalty. I do adhere to the rules of golf, whether I like all of them or not. I just don't care if my friends do or not. That's none of my business.

[jamesduncan]

...I gotta tell ya...personally if anybody goes into a bunker and takes a practice swing and addresses the ball or if you ball moves a half of an inch anywhere on the course or if you forget to remark a moved mark on the green ...I could give a rats ass. If you break a rule like saying you had a four when you had a five I may take issue with it...otherwise I have no pretense that I am anything but a hacker out to have a good time. While I don't disregard the rules, I think I and most of us weekend duffers are not Tour Pros.

did u read my differentiation tho between a casual round and a competitive round?

if im playing a 5-10 dollar nassau, you bet im gonna give a rats ass if someone is breaking the rules, like i said on the other thread, especially at my home course, bethpage black, where good bunker play and the ability to "read" them can definately decide the outcome of a hole in match play. (just to add: last weekend in a side match it was discovered that one person was infact cheating. it wasnt in my match by the player affected ended up not paying this particular person) plus i would humbly add if you ever decide to beome more than simply a hacker (hey no shame in being a hacker ) your game would strongly benefit from a more strict adherance to the rules of golf. btw: any competitive golf round (ie: a club championship, a local amateur event etc) will be played in accordance to the Rules of Golf. So to say that these issues basically dont apply to us because we arent Touring Pros is very misleading. Id also agree w/ erik that submitting all of your scores into GHIN network (and therefore maintaining a handicap) is essentially the same thing as having your card attested.

[Madriver]

99.9% of my rounds are leisure rounds. I rarely play competitive golf.

...per your aruguement pretaing to the rules you have issues with...I apply this with common sense during friendly golf outings. Meaning that a strict adherance to EVERY rule in the book would not only be amazing, but lessen the experience of an enjoyable round. Arnold Palmer can talk about the purity of golf and it's reverance. When I'm out with friends I take it for what it is, fun. Having said that, when I play a round with my friends that are pro's I have a very different demeanor on the course.

[Madriver]

99.9% of my rounds are leisure rounds. I rarely play competitive golf.

...per your aruguement pretaing to the rules you have issues with...I apply this with common sense during friendly golf outings. Meaning that a strict adherance to EVERY rule in the book would not only be amazing, but lessen the experience of an enjoyable round. Arnold Palmer can talk about the purity of golf and it's reverance. When I'm out with friends I take it for what it is, fun. Having said that, when I play a round with my friends that are pro's I have a very different demeanor on the course.

BTW...WTF do I keep getting logged out every time I post?

[Madriver]

did u read my differentiation tho between a casual round and a competitive round?

give me six a side and I will not only play by the rules but I'll let you keep score in that nassau!

[jamesduncan]

...Meaning that a strict adherance to EVERY rule in the book would not only be amazing, but lessen the experience of an enjoyable round. Arnold Palmer can talk about the purity of golf and it's reverance. When I'm out with friends I take it for what it is, fun.

hmm id take expection to this notion actually.

the rules themselves (in my opinion) are fairly painless to follow. to be honest, i think its more because so few people actually know them that makes it seem playing by them daunting. playing by the rules (as they are laid out) doesnt lessen the experience, but id image having to call penalties basically on every hole (given the amount of infractions I personally see in caual rounds...changing to a "long ball" for a long hole lets say) would indeed suck. my main point in this whole discussion is that the rules themselves arent the ploblem (hence they dont need to be changed), its the fact that so few people even know them, let alone play by them. but id agree that not my problem in a friendly casual round (i simply play by them, if other people dont, no sweat by me). its just that all the whining starts when people, who never adhere to rules they dont even know in the first place, start to see them simply being enforced on TV.