Traditional Swing teaching is over-rated

[Cornbread]

But now it's the expense, and you keep going back to silly things like "Jim Furyk and Jack Nicklaus don't have swing coaches" (when they do). .

Incorrect. This poster has never stated that Furyk and Nicklaus never had swing coaches.. You must have me confused with someone else.

What I stated was that most of the game biggest names don't or didn't have a normal / traditional swing (like instructers wish to teach). And Paradox is correct. Everyones body is different, everyones body limitations are different, and everyone thinks and learned differently.

[Shanks A Million]

Incorrect. This poster has never stated that Furyk and Nicklaus never had swing coaches.. You must have me confused with someone else.

This has to be the biggest myth out there. Furyk's swing looks funny, but his positions are immaculate. His swing is more tecnhically sound than probably most people here. Just because he takes it back way over his head doesn't mean much.

Here, heck, take out the loop, and watch for yourself:

[Cornbread]

Nothing is similar between the two. examples: at contact, Furyks right elbow is lying on his right hip, and his hips are totally open to the target. Eldricks isn't.
His legs and heel proceed well ahead of Eldricks at the same points in the down swing.

[Paradox]

Nothing is similar between the two. examples: at contact, Furyks right elbow is lying on his right hip, and his hips are totally open to the target. Eldricks isn't.

same the same things. Jim Furyk's entire body is pretty much facing the targe at the time he makes impact. Tiger is about halfway there at impact.

[Shanks A Million]

Nothing is similar between the two. examples: at contact, Furyks right elbow is lying on his right hip, and his hips are totally open to the target. Eldricks isn't.

You're arguing semantics. A high handicapper would have his hips square to the target, or worse. Also, the camera angle makes Furyk's elbow look closer. Tiger has a steeper downswing plane, so of course his is going to look different. My point is, do you see any flipping, casting, reverse pivot, chicken wing, or any other amatuer mistake in either swing? No. They are both fundamentally solid swings with good positions.

[Tomboys]

Guys, it's pointless to debate with Cornbread. He feels that it's unnecessary to take lessons from teachers because they teach a traditional swing. And, because of that, he feels they have no tolerance for individual nuances in a swing. As such, he feels you're better off buying a video camera and maybe an instructional DVD and figuring it out for yourself. According to him, if you're athletic and, for a lack of a better term, smart enough, then you should have no problem figuring out a "proper" swing. If you're uncoordinated and weak-minded, then go get some lessons. I'm paraphrasing, but the gist is there. Oh and the last caveat; he's never taken a lesson.

So, why would I want to debate with a guy over the benefits of formal lessons when he's never taken one? He's got his mind made up and that's that.

All I can say is that, based on my experiences, he's way off in his assertions. Over the course of my golf "career", I've taken lessons from 5 different instructors and all of them have taken in account the personal nuances of my swing. I didn't start playing golf until my early 30's, and I started with the DIY swing. I played HS varsity football (QB) and varsity tennis--I know strange combo, but what the heck, I enjoyed it. I figured I'm somewhat coordinated and all of my golfing buddies were self-taught, so that's where I started. While I could shoot mid-80's, I could just as easily shoot 100+. So, I took formal lessons because I wanted to make my game more consistent and ultimately, better. Yes, I admit it, I'm competitive, so I wanted to be better to beat my buddies.

Did my game get better? Sure did, got down to low to mid 80s consistently. The biggest problem was, I never practiced and I was lucky to play 3 times a month. So, I would go in spurts where I wouldn't pick up my clubs for weeks, sometimes months. I had young children at the time and I was the sole breadwinner. Why 5 different instructors? Simple. I moved a couple of times and some of the instructors got new gigs out too far away. Also, I never took more than a one or two lesson quick fix here and there. So, it wasn't like I had forged a strong working relationship with any one of them.

Fast forward to now. Earlier this year, I decided to get more serious with my game--some of the kids are in college now. So, I've got the "me" time to really devote to golf. I was shooting in the 100s and decided it was time to see (another) instructor. The only thing I did differently this time was that I interviewed a few different ones in the area. When I found one that I clicked with, I signed up for a lesson.

Over the past month, I've taken 4 lessons and have played 4 rounds. Days at the range? Zero. Warming up prior to my rounds? Zero. The 4 rounds prior to lessons were, 102, 105, 107 and 99. The 4 rounds were after the lessons were, 95, 92, 87 and 85. The last score (my most recent), I made the turn at 2 over, but I started cramping up. It was 102* and I wasn't drinking any water, just a 12oz Diet Coke. Not a good thing since I was experiencing abdominal cramps. Needless to say, it killed my back 9 score.

Why did my scores change so much? Simple. My instructor saw that I had a flip in my swing, so we spent time correcting that not just on the range, but on the course as well. Once I understood what I was doing wrong and was given the opportunity to work on it when it mattered most (on the course), it helped me trust the correction that he gave me. My first two lessons were split between the range and the course. My last two were strictly on the course. It was on the course that he discovered that I have a tendency to get out of synch with my upper and lower body. So, we worked on that. This is not something I requested (lessons on the course), this is something that he scripted for me based on his assessment of my skill level and needs.

[Cornbread]

Guys, it's pointless to debate with Cornbread. He feels that it's unnecessary to take lessons from teachers because they teach a traditional swing. And, because of that, he feels they have no tolerance for individual nuances in a swing. As such, he feels you're better off buying a video camera and maybe an instructional DVD and figuring it out for yourself. According to him, if you're athletic and, for a lack of a better term, smart enough, then you should have no problem figuring out a "proper" swing. If you're uncoordinated and weak-minded, then go get some lessons. I'm paraphrasing, but the gist is there. Oh and the last caveat; he's never taken a lesson. So, why would I want to debate with a guy over the benefits of formal lessons when he's never taken one? He's got his mind made up and that's that.

First, Thanks for paying attention, and for the biography of your life.

Second, I stated that 'traditional' swing teaching is OVER-RATED, not totally useless. Third, I had one or two instruction sessions when I was 15... (I'm 51 currently) not paid lessons. Fourth, Why does someone who shoots in the 100's have the following clubs and balls: Driver:9.5* 905R Aldila 65-S 3-wood:15* r7 TP Fujikura Irons:735cm 2-PW S300 Wedges:Vokey Series 200 52.08, 56.14 Putter:Scotty Cameron Studio Style Newport 2 34" Ball:ProV1x Bag:S84 cart bag A bit much don't you think? Obviously you feel that money can buy you an A Game...or you just like looking like you know what your doing. Fifth, and finally: try some Mydol for those Cramps, and a water pill will help with your bloating. :)

[Tomboys]

First, Thanks for paying attention, and for the biography of your life.

Aww. Cornbread. Do you need a hug? See, we studied dysfunctional people like you in college. You seek attention. Even if it's bad. Don't worry, someday they'll come out with a pill to cure whatever it is that you have. Oh wait, traditional medicine may be over-rated for you. So, I guess you should go buy a video camera and an instructional DVD and I'm sure you'll figure out what's wrong with your head.

[laconic517]

I disagree wholeheartedly with this notion of natural ability below the absolute highest levels. You can MAKE high level amateurs simply through instruction and repetition. I mean look at the collegiate golf ranks. Maybe im bitter because I feel like I could play there with the instruction the other kids have but meh. I mean hell, the golf channel even had a show on it with Hank Haney being moderately involved. Tons of rich kids go to leadbetter academies in florida and fill up the collegiate ranks.

Nowadays kids go to golf academies that pretty much guarantee they will at the very least play collegiate golf on scholarship. The game can be bought below the highest levels.

At the very top however, I do believe its about talent on top of all the instruction. Its the reason you see the same guys out there winning and or on tour for 20 years, they are the best and have the most talent.

[jamo]

Fourth, Why does someone who shoots in the 100's have the following clubs and balls:

So without anything to actually go on with your argument, you proceed to degrade your opponent's character. Let's see how this works out.

So what, you got to a 6 without any formal teaching. I've gotten to wherever I am without any teaching that was helpful or even valid. Big kudos for you. Get over it. But for most people being taught what to look for and what to feel is the difference between quitting after a few tries and developing a life long passion for the game.

[Cornbread]

Maybe im bitter because I feel like I could play there with the instruction the other kids have but meh. I mean hell, the golf channel even had a show on it with Hank Haney being moderately involved. Tons of rich kids go to leadbetter academies in florida and fill up the collegiate ranks.

You have semi hit the nail on the head. It is all about MONEY. However, the most talented Golfer are NOT just the ones on Tour. The ones on Tour had the financial backing when young (like you stated). It takes more than talent to make it in the professional golf world. Kids have to travel all over the country for years to play in tourmaments as Juniors. As you stated they also have to attend High Dollar Academies, and Joe Average doesn't have, nor can't spend, this sort of money.

Their are amatures all over the country in Country Clubs with just as much talent as the Pros you see on T.V weekly. Take these guys, give them the assistance, backing, equipment, a professional caddy, a Mental Trainer, a Physical Trainer and unlimited time for Golf (without having to work)... and you end up with the same final product.

[jamo]

It is all about MONEY.

And what do they do with that money? They get traditional swing teaching.

I rest my case.

[Cornbread]

Aww. Cornbread. Do you need a hug? See, we studied dysfunctional people like you in college. You seek attention. Even if it's bad. Don't worry, someday they'll come out with a pill to cure whatever it is that you have. Oh wait, traditional medicine may be over-rated for you. So, I guess you should go buy a video camera and an instructional DVD and I'm sure you'll figure out what's wrong with your head.

While your out getting me that Camera, pick up a book on Character Reading for yourself... A TomBoys quote from a year or so ago: Tiger Woods-- He grew up with parents who loved and cherished him. They taught him to be a great person first, then a great golfer. While some may feel he's somewhat aloof and doesn't mingle with the crowds enough, his game is respected by all. He's got a hottie for a wife, a kid named Sam and a bunch friends that are on the lists of who's who as well as some no-name guys. All this and he doesn't seem to take himself too seriously. The guy seems genuine and very well rounded to me.

[CoolBreeze20]

First, Thanks for paying attention, and for the biography of your life.

You are 51? Judging by your responses and lame attempts at personal insults, I would have pegged you for more like a 16yr old whiny high school kid. What is a 6-handicap player doing acting like he knows everything? Guess you arent very good at implementing those "self taught" swing theories,eh? You really think the only difference between a touring pro and a club pro is resources?? Wow....that just screams ignorance. You do know not every successful touring pro grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth.....right? Thats just a dumb generalization.

[Cornbread]

And what do they do with that money? They get traditional swing teaching.

You should give it a rest... especially since you overlooked the following that I stated was also needed...

assistance, backing, equipment, a professional caddy, a Mental Trainer, a Physical Trainer and unlimited time for Golf (without having to work)...

[Tomboys]

I'm 51 and also with a 6 handicap and I have never taken a Golf lesson in my life.

Third, I had one or two instruction sessions when I was 15... (I'm 51 currently) not paid lessons.

While your out getting me that Camera, pick up a book on Character Reading for yourself...

Don't need to. You read like a textbook. In this case, under Gestalt Psychology, you're engaging in a classic case of deflection. One of the key element (trait) is;

Misunderstanding or redefining of what has been said or done. In one post you claim to have never taken a lesson. Later, in another post, you state that you've only had one or two instruction sessions. From there, you try to qualify (redefine) your "lesson" you received by stating that you didn't pay for it. So, by your rationale, since you didn't have to pay for it, it doesn't count as a "lesson". Well, I've got bad news for you. Harvey Penick was a well respected instructor and some of his pupils paid for their sessions and some didn't. At the end of the day, the information you received qualifies as a lesson. If any money is exchanged, then it becomes a business transaction. Hence, you had a lesson, but not a business transaction. So much for being "self-taught".

[RC]

I think it does not matter how well you can strike a ball or play, the right teacher can improve your game. There are good teachers and bad, teachers suitable for some people and not others, and in all such matters, it might take more than one or two attempts to find the teacher that can really make an impact on your game. But if you can, tangible improvement is well worth it if you enjoy consistent contact, controlling your ball flight, and playing to a higher level. If golf is not something you do to get better, then just go enjoy the game and groove a swing that will not elevate your skill or lower your scores. I've said it before and will say it again, all golfers observe other golfers and a small fraction can develop a decent game by observing and self-improvement (what we feel is not a reliable measure of what we actually do) -- but I do not think anything will raise your level of play more than a teacher who is competent and right for you. There is a huge difference among various teachers of the game, we all know that. Nothing new here. The skills of observation, knowledge, knowing what is appropriate for each player, etc., are very diverse. But on average, taking lessons from a qualified instructor is the best way for the vast majority of golfers to improve, and the longer someone waits and continues faulty swings, the hard it is to make changes for the better. In simple terms, bad muscle memory is a hard thing to change.

[Cornbread]

Don't need to. You read like a textbook. In this case, under Gestalt Psychology, you're engaging in a classic case of deflection. One of the key element (trait) is;

Hey Look Everyone... It's Dr. Phil masquerading as a sandtrap member.

Hey Doc, can you also tell me why dislike Clowns and small farm animals?