Carrying Weapons (on the golf course)

[TourSpoon]

Whoever's more trigger happy loses

I heard that Chuck Norris played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver and he won...

OK...that was my last one. Back to golf.

[Kieran123]

If only we could be as non violent as the UK and other countries with a higher robbery per captia rate

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...e-total-crimes http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ime-burglaries http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ime-car-thefts http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

[golfro]

a whole lot of ignorance from out of staters here... along with a whole lot of "yee-haw" git-r-dun types too.

I'm very much neutral when it comes to gun ownership. I've found myself in a position where I desired a gun MANY times. I spend a lot of time in the outdoors here in the PNW and I've come across tweakers MANY times. I once fly fished the Skykomish early morning and came backt o my car to find a tweaker elbowing my windshield to break in. I yelled at him and he ran off but the thought crossed my mind, what if he had lunged at me with a knife? What am I going to fight him off with a fishing hook? I'm by no means a small man. 5'10" and 200 lbs, but the thought of fighting off a damn tweaker with a knife frightens me.

There are many times when gun ownership is necessary. Luckily here in the PNW, golf courses are the last places you'll need to carry a gun. I do however understand that in other parts of the country, I can see it necessary. I grew up in Oklahoma and California and have seen the worst of both.

I won't be purchasing a gun and carrying one because given the situation, I won't hesitate to shoot. I've gotten by just fine with words in most situations. However, I will say, when I have a family and a house, there will be a gun in the house.

plus, here in the PNW, you're likely to get shunned if you carry a gun around. you're considered insane around here if you carry.

[iacas]

What I don't understand is how carrying a gun helps to protect yourself.

The statistics don't back you up. Common thread - a lot of people who are anti-gun make assumptions. They seem to be based on common sense, but they're not.

The fact is that if you're the victim or attempted victim (you know what I mean) of a violent crime, you're THREE TIMES as likely to survive or escape serious injury if you have a firearm. Home invasions, rapes, car jackings, etc. THREE TIMES more likely to survive or escape serious injury. Criminals are stupid, but even they are rarely stupid enough to risk their lives for a few hundred dollars. They'll just go rob someone who's not armed. I've got a few NRA lifetime member stickers. Know where a lot of them are? On the first-floor windows and doors of my house. Nothing I've got in my house is worth being shot at.

Of course if someone ELSE is being robbed, I would be in a position to offer assistance.

Also true and a valid point, yes.

I would see no sense in taking a gun to go golfing. If someone pulls a gun on you while you golf, then that is that. What are you gonna do pull yours out and then there is a chance you both die. It is stupidity.

No it's not. Your'e THREE TIMES less likely to be killed or seriously injured if you're armed.

And BTW, one of the best sources for stats like this (from which this one came) is a book called "ARMED" by Gary Kleck. He, like many criminologists and sociologists, began his career opposed to guns, but by seeing countless studies and stats that FAVOR guns, change their minds. And to be clear, I've never taken a gun on a golf course, but I can't say I never will and I don't have a problem with those who do.

What's this obsession with guns in america?

We don't want to see our violent crime rates skyrocket like they did in the UK or Australia when they banned guns. It's not an obsession. And, hey, good thing some early Americans knew how to use guns or we'd still be paying for things with pounds and praising the queen...

If you get into a fist-fight, you'll get a few bruises but you'll survive. Get into a gun-fight there's a good chance somebody will die. Giving anybody the chance to get a gun is a terrible idea.

Nice guessing, but again, you're THREE TIMES more likely to survive or escape serious injury if you're armed than if you're not.

A maniac could go around on a killing spree (which has happened in the past).

A maniac can build a bomb, too. Or buy a sword.

I doubt we have a lot of maniacs on the forum here. Criminals will always have access to guns. When you limit a LAW-ABIDING citizen's right to have a gun, then the criminals will simply commit more crimes. Think about it... you're a thief. Do you rob the house of the guy who you know to have ten guns or do you rob the nice people who don't have any guns at all?

Intentional homicide rates per 100,000 population by region and subregion, 2004

You do realize that in the U.S. suicides are often included in homicide rates while they're not counted in other countries.

Additionally, consider the stupid "documentary" Michael Moore did awhile ago. He makes my point - and the point Gary Kleck makes in ARMED. Detroit has fewer guns per capita than the town across the river - which is in Canada - and a ton more violence. People in Canada are armed to the gills relative to some parts of the U.S. and have far, far fewer gun deaths. Why? Because the gun violence "problem" in the U.S. is an ECONOMIC problem. I believe another statistic is that 90% of gun violence in the U.S. is black-on-black inner-city violence. It's an economic problem - people are desperate and living in slums or the inner cities of this country and they resort to guns and gangs. People in the suburbs aren't shooting each other. And the rare occasions when it happens, a knife would have done just as well if it was around. A lot of the anti-gun people try to mention kids, but kids are something like 5x or 10x more likely to drown in a home pool than get shot (and that stat includes inner city kids) despite there being 20x fewer home pools than guns.

A lot of countries have governments that don't allow their people to carry guns....and they still have freedom and liberties????

Well, they've clearly lost the right to defend themselves, haven't they?

I remember reading a story about a guy who charged into a church waving a gun around. He was going to kill as many people as he could. Instead, an off-duty auxiliary police woman shot him before he could act (not fatally) and the others took his gun away from him. I remember a story about these guys who were going to massacre a ton of people in Israel, I think. They showed up in a public place and took out their guns and started to shoot people. The four (I think) of them were killed before they could actually kill anyone else and only a few people were even shot. They were of course killed by the armed citizens. Someone already said it, too - an armed society is a polite society. Nobody here has come across as a "gun nut." I don't have a problem if you choose NOT to carry a gun, but if you're ever in trouble I'm guessing you're going to hope some nice citizen around you sees you and has a gun to help you out...

[Mizzoujohn]

I wonder when you would actually pull a gun on the golf course? When being armed robbed? At that point shouldnt you just give them your $ and not risk them shooting you when you pull the gun? I guess I don't understand.
John

[lonewolf]

A lot of countries have governments that don't allow their people to carry guns....and they still have freedom and liberties????

True, to a point. You are conveniently forgetting a lot of history though.

May I remind you of Northern Ireland (recent history). The freedoms and liberties of the citizens of countries that do not have the right to protect themselves are - by definition - less than those of us who do. Our founders recognized that. Let's talk about Ireland, for example. Why do you think The United States of America had so many Irish immigrants in the 18th and 19th Century? Do you think it was due to the freedoms and liberties granted by the British...or was it maybe due to oppression? Bottom line is this: The golf course referenced in the OP is in the US. And the US has a Cosntitution. And that Constitution has a 2nd Amendment that deems it necessary for it's citizenry to be able to own guns.

[SpoiledRotten]

Those that aren't allowed to do something that others can, usually feel the way you do about subjects at hand, particularly, the gun freedoms that we have here. You aren't alone. Canadians feel the same way about our gun rights. You may as well say that you are glad you can't do something if your "rulers" won't allow it anyway. I carry just about any where I go.
I'll bet it's hard to pull a law enforcement officer out of your pocket for when someone decide to take what you have. They are only there to report on the crime after it's been committed. They are reactive, not proactive for the most part. I make myself proactive by having my CCW permit. I can't count on anyone else to protect me at the time I need it most. I'm glad I don't live where you do! Bow to your queen for me. I'll surely never do it.

[iacas]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ime-burglaries

You do realize a lot of those statistics - however accurate they are, so I'm not claiming a big win here or anything - favor things like the UK. Additionally, in many U.S. cities like NYC and Chicago where a disproportionate amount of crime happens, people aren't as likely to be carrying both because of laws and their perceptions (more Democrats).

No comparison between the UK and the U.S. can take into account the fact that, again, almost nobody has a carry permit in NYC. We don't have an over-riding "national" gun law. Many of our larger cities have their own laws, and that toys with the statistics.

It's better to have and not need than to need and not have. My having a firearm doesn't magicly turn a fistfight into a gun fight unless I choose to.

Yep. It's just a tool, as you go on to say. Just because you've got a gun doesn't mean you need to use it - or that anyone else even needs to know you have it.

I wonder when you would actually pull a gun on the golf course? When being armed robbed? At that point shouldnt you just give them your $ and not risk them shooting you when you pull the gun? I guess I don't understand.

Again, if someone's got a gun on you already, you hand over your wallet and call the police when the guy leaves. It's a tool - you aren't required to pull it out every time you are approached by someone you don't know. :P

[SpoiledRotten]

That is the very thing that keeps some crimes from happening... the unknown. That crook has no clue that I'm carrying. It's called the element of surprise that keeps you safer than if you didn't have anything but a cell phone to call the cops and let them know that you've just been shot by a thug and they need to call your next of kin to get the funeral arrangements started because you're fixing to take your last breath.

[SpoiledRotten]

For most sensible Americans it's equally inconceivable. I've lived in the west for more than 45 years, in Montana and Colorado. I've owned a number of rifles and handguns, but I've never felt any need to carry one unless I was going shooting. The sort of person who feels that he has to carry to feel safe is a tiny paranoid minority of the US population. Most of us have more sense than that.

If we are ever, by chance, occupying the same area and are approached by someone meaning to do us harm, I promise that I will not humiliate you by offering to protect you with my gun. I will let them know that they can do whatever they want with you and I will not interfere, but they will get shot if they mess with me.

[JML22]

Honestly the last thing i'm worried about is getting robbed at gun point on a golf course.

[lonewolf]

I remember that guy who killed 17 students in cold blood at a school in america.

----------------------------------------------

"If you give people power there's a chance they'll abuse it." --If you give government power there's a gurantee it will be abused. The right to bear arms is a check on that power. This may be hard for someone under British rule and/or someone without historical context to understand but governments have-do-and will abuse power. Again, an armed citezenry is a good check against that abuse. You don't like guns...then don't own one. You don't appreciate the right to bear arms then don't bear them. But don't forget......the 2nd amendment exists in the US whether you like it or not.

[James_Black]

I guess I don't understand the situation in america.

The only reason I'd want a gun was if I was going into the very bad parts of limerick or dublin. And common sense means you stay out of that part of town.

Honestly the last thing i'm worried about is getting robbed at gun point on a golf course

thank you.

[SpoiledRotten]

Fortunately, I've only had to use mine one time, and never had to fire it. I was pulling into an apartment complex one afternoon to retrieve a wrench that I had left there earlier that day, when waiting for the automated security gate to open, three thugs pulled in behind me, trapping me between them and the gate. They started getting out to do whatever they had planned. I simply held up my .40 and told them to come on and we would talk about their plans. They got back in their truck, backed away and left me. I was never so glad to have a gun with me. I might not be here to post on this forum. You can take all of the chances you want. Life is short enough to allow someone else to shorten it even more.

[shades9323]

I guess I don't understand the situation in america.

There is a lot you don't understand. It comes with the territory of being 14.

[rebby]

Just some reading material that I would encourage any/all of you to read. Especially those of you who are ignorant about the real laws and statistics around this issue. Ignorance isn't bad, just empower yourself via education.

http://gunfacts.info/
http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less...9131650&sr;=8-1

The second link is for a book that really dives into the statistics dealing with firearms. It even looks at such statistics worldwide, not just locally. It's written by an Economist by the name of John Lott. It's a fantastic read and you're bound to learn a great deal about all aspects of gun ownership. If the $12 proves to be too much of an investment for you, I have a few copies of the previous edition (published in 2000 vs the new edition from earlier this year), that I will be more than willing to send to anybody on this forum free of cost as long as you agree to send it back within a reasonable time frame. Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, this is a very good read.

Personal disclaimer: I am an 07 FFL holder, which means that I am a legal, licensed, manufacture of firearms and ammunition. My business specializes in high end, fully customized weapons primarily for use in law enforcement and personal defense, we also serve as a reseller for other manufacture's products as well. Our business was founded based on demand in the law enforcement community and that continues to be our primary market. However, even though we specialize in weapons for law enforcement, we also work with a great deal of law abiding civilians to deliver solutions that fit their need (anything from home defense, to daily carry, to hunting and even target shooting). Because this discussion has been so civil and, I believe, quite educational and an overall good read, I would like to extend an offer to TST members to do business with us for their next purchase. Due to the volatile nature of the business, I can't state any specific percentages or anything but I will do everything that I can to provide the best possible deal. Please send me a PM if you think that I may be able to help you out.

footnote: I did clear the above with iacas before posting. It is not my intention to advertise via this forum which is why I did not provide a link to my business. Instead, it is my intention to give back to this community as my way of saying "thanks". Being able to leverage my business as a mechanism to help other members is just one way of doing this.

[SpoiledRotten]

I would see no sense in taking a gun to go golfing. If someone pulls a gun on you while you golf, then that is that. What are you gonna do pull yours out and then there is a chance you both die.

If you both die, isn't that better than just you dying?

It is stupidity. Just give him your shit and live.

Many aren't satisfied with just taking what you have. They want that godly feeling of holding your life in their hands too. And many will prove that they actually had that surpreme power by taking your life for that $5.00 bill that you had in your pocket.

I am in bad parts of Cleveland all the time and I still don't carry one, just walk around deep(not being alone). The only time I will every carry is when I pick up hunting as a hobby.

That's what you say now. I hope nothing ever happens to you that changes that statement.

I don't care if people carry, but come on you are golfing

And many can say, I was only there shopping, or I was only visiting the city park, or, or, or.

There is not a specific zone where the crimes can happen. Yes, it can even happen at a golf course or a baseball game, or a track meet.

so you most likely have a lot to live for and bringing a gun can increase the chance that you die.

That is a very shallow minded statement made by someone that is very dependant on someone else to take care of him... like the police. Hint...read my earlier post about the police being there only after the crime takes place. How many policemen are actually there when the crime goes down?

This will really be hard for someone like you to believe, but if you ever go into a really big church, chances are that you'll see at least one security officer standing around with a firearm on his hip.

[sean_miller]

There is a lot you don't understand. It comes with the territory of being 14.

I think anyone in a Commonwealth country (like Canada, New Zealand, Australia - the places where Queen Elizabeth is on the "heads" side of a quarter) should think twice about a handgun ownership debate with Americans. We're taught that our ways are the best, and we believe that since our neighbours feel the same, we're safe. In our lifetime there may be a nationwide paradigm shift, but there are already huge pockets of gun toters in every "handgun free" nation. It's reality. As a Canadian, I often see my countrymen waving the maple leaf and spouting off about all great things Canadian - like our wonderful healthcare system. We sure do we have choices when it comes to healthcare. We either can die at home or we can die on the floor in the ER waiting room.