Unpopular opinion I'm sure... I HATE net golf.

[Fourputt]

Can you explain how your chances of winning increase the more strokes you have to give up? Is it just that the ability of the other golfer gets worse compared to you the more strokes you have to give?

Those results are a bit off, as they appear to assume a one on one matchup. In the long run the low handicapper will win more than he loses one on one because he gets the advantage of the .96 multiplier in the handicap formula. But when playing against a mixed field and potentially giving up a lot of strokes to 20 or 30 or more golfers, the odds are that at least one of them will be on a hot streak, and the low handicapper can't expect to compete with a high handicapper on a streak. A streaking 25 capper can easily shoot into the mid 80's (12 or more under par net), while a 2 handicap will be having a lifetime round at just 4 under par. The odds are just too good that at least one of those high handicappers will be in the zone on any given weekend.

This is why the USGA handicap system recommends that stroke tournaments be flighted. The handcap system works reasonably well one on one or two on two (assuming that all players have honest and legitimate handicaps), but not when competing against an entire field.

[alomar123]

Can you explain how your chances of winning increase the more strokes you have to give up? Is it just that the ability of the other golfer gets worse compared to you the more strokes you have to give?

I guess because their blow up holes are really bad

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Tugglife2

I can imagine playing in that club championship with my 31.5 index, shooting a 96 and winning net to become CLUB CHAMPION! That's a very funny mental picture.

In my club last year there was a 36-handicap.  It would be pretty cool if some new guy was coming up to me and asking "who is the club champ around here" and I pointed to the guy on the driving range hitting every other divot further than his range balls

[deronsizemore]

I agree. I'm not a fan of net golf either. Net golf works ONLY when people are honest with their handicaps, which from my experience isn't common.

In a 9 hole league I play in, we've got guys getting 18+ shots for 9 holes. I don't care how good you are, if you're scratch and playing against someone getting 18 shots, it's tough to make up that.

If everyone is honest with their handicaps, the better golfer should still win most of the time. In my golf league, the best golfer has never won the league, so what's that tell ya?

[cody west]

Originally Posted by jamo

I agree with you. At that certain level where everyone is about the same ability there should be no handicapping. But net scores are a great way for the scratch golfer to compete with the 30 handicapper.

i guess but you have to remember, if myself or you are playing a 12 hcp'er were going to loose. the way the hcp system is set up it caters to failure.

if you look at the way the card is set an 11 will get 10 strokes off of me. These strokes will overlap some holes im expected to bogey like the 1 handicap hole.  So if we both bogey the 1 hcp hole as expected then we both play to our handicaps I lose by 1...do it with any handicap, the high handicapper is getting strokes on holes that we are expected to bogey while they generally have a few blow up holes then make a couple pars or bogies and beat us on a few holes that we par

Also, correct me in I'm wrong all of the rest of the 0's its much harder for us to shoot -5 than it is for a 15 to shoot +10. Just saying, you can only go so low.

[meenman]

Originally Posted by cody west

i guess but you have to remember, if myself or you are playing a 12 hcp'er were going to loose. the way the hcp system is set up it caters to failure.

if you look at the way the card is set an 11 will get 10 strokes off of me. These strokes will overlap some holes im expected to bogey like the 1 handicap hole.  So if we both bogey the 1 hcp hole as expected then we both play to our handicaps I lose by 1...do it with any handicap, the high handicapper is getting strokes on holes that we are expected to bogey while they generally have a few blow up holes then make a couple pars or bogies and beat us on a few holes that we par

Also, correct me in I'm wrong all of the rest of the 0's its much harder for us to shoot -5 than it is for a 15 to shoot +10. Just saying, you can only go so low.

I must live in bizzaro world. Even in net games, if we weren't flighted, the low handicaps would win 60-70% of the time. It may because posted scores are lowered by ESC, and in tournaments - those double digit scores count as double digits in the tournament.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by cody west

Also, correct me in I'm wrong all of the rest of the 0's its much harder for us to shoot -5 than it is for a 15 to shoot +10. Just saying, you can only go so low.

I hear what you're saying. You're probably right with the way most people treat handicaps. But, according to the USGA, assuming a handicap is legit the golfer will typically shoot on average three strokes above their handicap. So, if someone is a legit 15 handicap, for them to shoot five strokes better than their handicap, that's not like to happen often. But, it goes back to being legit, which in my experience, most handicaps aren't.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I hear what you're saying. You're probably right with the way most people treat handicaps. But, according to the USGA, assuming a handicap is legit the golfer will typically shoot on average three strokes above their handicap. So, if someone is a legit 15 handicap, for them to shoot five strokes better than their handicap, that's not like to happen often. But, it goes back to being legit, which in my experience, most handicaps aren't.

Read my post above.  Your case may have nothing to do with sandbagging.  It has more to do with playing against a field of golfers with higher handicaps than you have.  The higher your handicap, the more room there is for playing better than your handicap.  The more of those high handicappers you compete against, them more likely it is that one or more of them will play 4 or 5 (or more) strokes better than their handicaps.  It has more to do with having room for variability that it does with any intention of sandbagging.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Read my post above.  Your case may have nothing to do with sandbagging.  It has more to do with playing against a field of golfers with higher handicaps than you have.  The higher your handicap, the more room there is for playing better than your handicap.  The more of those high handicappers you compete against, them more likely it is that one or more of them will play 4 or 5 (or more) strokes better than their handicaps.  It has more to do with having room for variability that it does with any intention of sandbagging.

I get what you're saying completely. Makes sense in a tournament setting when it's 50 guys playing for the prize and the lowest net wins. More guys equals more chances for one or two to have a career day. When it's a golf league and you're establishing your handicap over the course of a couple months and then playing one-on-one in the end of the year tournament (like I'm talking about) in match play format, it's not the same. While not always the case, the better player should win most of the time and both players should typically average about three shots over their handicap. But I do realize people can play well once in a blue moon.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I get what you're saying completely. Makes sense in a tournament setting when it's 50 guys playing for the prize and the lowest net wins. More guys equals more chances for one or two to have a career day. When it's a golf league and you're establishing your handicap over the course of a couple months and then playing one-on-one in the end of the year tournament (like I'm talking about) in match play format, it's not the same. While not always the case, the better player should win most of the time and both players should typically average about three shots over their handicap. But I do realize people can play well once in a blue moon.

Seems like ages since I've seen one of those blue moons.  My game just keeps going downhill lately, and my handicap goes up at a somewhat slower rate.

[sean_miller]

My new course is rife with sandbaggers. I had to give strokes to 3 guys yesterday. I've played with them on the weekend and they somehow mange to just miss enough shots to get bogey or worse on every hole. During league play they all hit every fairway, almost every green, then end up with no worse than par on every hole. One guy doing that I can see it being a fluke, but 3 out of 3? I was out of it before we even teed off. Net is lame.

Edit (clarification): I had to give strokes to all 3 guys in my foursome.  I hit the ball longer than they do, but tee to green there's no way they were 24+ cappers!!

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by jamo

I agree with you. At that certain level where everyone is about the same ability there should be no handicapping. But net scores are a great way for the scratch golfer to compete with the 30 handicapper.

Why should a 30 handicapper be able to compete with a scratch golfer?  I can't break 100.  I'm not supposed to be able to compete with scratch players.  Scratch golfers should be beating me so thoroughly that it's embarrassing for me.  That provides me with incentive to improve my game.  I'm supposed to get better and try to become a scratch player myself.  If I am a slow runner, I'm not going to kneecap an Olympic sprinter before crouching onto the starting blocks so I might have a chance of winning.  Handicaps make perfect sense as a measurement of your level of ability. Beyond that, I really don't see the point. It seems like the same mentality that spawns such athletic abominations as the participation trophy and little league games where you're not allowed to keep score and everyone gets ice cream after the game.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ochmude

Why should a 30 handicapper be able to compete with a scratch golfer?  I can't break 100.  I'm not supposed to be able to compete with scratch players.  Scratch golfers should be beating me so thoroughly that it's embarrassing for me.  That provides me with incentive to improve my game.  I'm supposed to get better and try to become a scratch player myself.  If I am a slow runner, I'm not going to kneecap an Olympic sprinter before crouching onto the starting blocks so I might have a chance of winning.  Handicaps make perfect sense as a measurement of your level of ability. Beyond that, I really don't see the point. It seems like the same mentality that spawns such athletic abominations as the participation trophy and little league games where you're not allowed to keep score and everyone gets ice cream after the game.

Sounds like a line from the recruitment brochure for our (Canadian) Olympic basketball program.

On topic, I'm beginning to realize that having the ability to reach a level of scratch is truly a blessing. In order to maintain balance in the universe, those blessed with this ability will be excluded from winning sleeves of Pinnacle Golds and $49 Wilson golf bags for low net.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

If everyone is honest with their handicaps, the better golfer should still win most of the time. In my golf league, the best golfer has never won the league, so what's that tell ya?

That tells me that your golf league needs to revamp how it keeps handicaps. The league I play in has "league" handicaps that are kept by the head of the league and carried over from year to year. This assures that they aren't using out of the league rounds to pad their handicaps.

[anotherday]

As a High Handicapper also, I can say that I see both sides..

For straight-up golfing: If you are at a certain handicap... say 5 or so, I think you should accept that you are capable of a better score than that just as much as the 1 handicapper is capable of a worse score. So straight up play should be agreed upon. I think in this particular case, maybe it would be better to just join a club that has a certain handicap restriction with the understanding that even if you just barely meet the requirements.. you will be playing straight-up golf for the tournaments.

Against straight-up golfing: Its hard to determine where someone is in their understanding of the game. Where would each flight cut off? And how do you ensure that someone hasn't just recently grasped something about his/her game that lowered their handicap but maybe not their functional "Golf IQ" ? So.. the handicap system is there to help a bit.

That being said, I don't think that Net Scores should determine a club winner - it should determine a Flight Winner. Gross score should determine a club winner. So... maybe the A Flight or Champions Flight might have a Net Score winner, but the Club Champion should be the Gross Score winner.

I think that it just makes sense that the person that you would want to statistically represent your club should be the one that shoots the lowest score without any handicap adjustments. Right?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by ochmude

Why should a 30 handicapper be able to compete with a scratch golfer?  I can't break 100.  I'm not supposed to be able to compete with scratch players.  Scratch golfers should be beating me so thoroughly that it's embarrassing for me.  That provides me with incentive to improve my game.  I'm supposed to get better and try to become a scratch player myself.  If I am a slow runner, I'm not going to kneecap an Olympic sprinter before crouching onto the starting blocks so I might have a chance of winning.  Handicaps make perfect sense as a measurement of your level of ability. Beyond that, I really don't see the point. It seems like the same mentality that spawns such athletic abominations as the participation trophy and little league games where you're not allowed to keep score and everyone gets ice cream after the game.

Net golf encourages participation.  There is no way most 30-cappers will show up to compete in bi-monthly tournaments and pay fees to get beat by 30 strokes every time.  So, in general participation and regular events, it has it's place.  In determining club champs and among near-scratch golfers, not so much.

Brandon

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Net golf encourages participation.  There is no way most 30-cappers will show up to compete in bi-monthly tournaments and pay fees to get beat by 30 strokes every time.  So, in general participation and regular events, it has it's place.  In determining club champs and among near-scratch golfers, not so much.

Brandon

I agree with that, but also agree that 30-cappers should not be competing against single-cappers... but that's where flights come in. (Players only compete against other golfers with handicaps within a few strokes of their own.) When flights are used it's more analogous to weight classes in boxing, and that makes sense to me.

[Hackforfun]

I am a high capper. I play golf against the course and my handicap regardless of the game.

I won our club matchplay championship last year by sticking to this mindset. I'm sure it was frustrating for the lower handicap players I faced. I think the lowest was off 8 versus my 25 or so at the time. If the low capper loses it because I make a couple of pars and half a hole with a bogey or a double that is for them to deal with. I never heard a low capper complain when they won holes from me with single or double bogeys after I chopped it for a huge number...

Play to the best of your ability, as close to your h/cap as you can and the matchplay takes care of itself. I won a lot of holes because lower handicap golfers felt they had to stick it in tight or take some other risky shot because I had got near the green in regulation and they owed me a shot.If they had just played more normally that chunked chip or three putt I had would have at least halved the hole or given them the W. This is the mental side of matchplay.

Does anyone in the club think I am a better golfer than the low markers in the club...not a chance. Do they think I am a competitive player who will try to play to the best of his ability, I hope so.

For non matchplay rounds why should it bother the low markers? Like Sean said most comps where everyone is bundled together the prizes are not likely to set hearts racing.

I do however agree that club champion being decided by nett result is silly. Club Champ is the best golfer in the club and that clearly is amongst the lowest markers in the club. Have a nett champ and/or grade(flight) champ for sure but the best golfer in the tournament - lowest gross - deserves the recognition as club champ.

*EDIT*

Just as an aside I have never beaten anyone in matchplay off 5 or less. I am 0/4 in these encounters. Low markers with cool heads will take a high capper to the cleaners 99/100.