Creating a deep lag...what should one be "feeling"?

[majorchamp]

I am a low handicapper, but lag is not something my swing has generally have had. I think the quality of my shots, etc.. have been more about timing...but lag is something I need to strive for because I believe I tend to flip through the ball versus hitting truly down on it and creating that great impact position.

What I want to know with anyone that has good lag is what one should "feel"? Sure I can do the flying wedge drill, etc... but when i start the downswing..should the idea be that I drive the butt of the club straight down to the ground? Is the downswing for pros less circular on the downswing and more vertical.

I have had such bad downswing habits for years...I need to get rid of it.

But what is a mental thought I should approach lag with? Butt of club straight down?

[golfro]

For me, I never really worked on "lag" but I've gotten several comments that I get tremendous lag on my downswing. For me its a matter of getting proper hip turn on the downswing. As my hip slide/turns, my right side elbow drops into my rib side which drives the butt down.

Maybe someone else can better explain this but yeah...its not jsut one thing to drive the club down, but a combination of hip slide/turn, right side elbow digs into my side, etc.

[chrisronline]

Same issue I have. Check out my swing thread for my improvements with some help from my PGA instructor.

He had me try a few different drills to ingrain the feel of the impact position, but I feel like the best drill is the one he gave me today. Basically, halfway through the downswing, try to get the shaft as close to the ground as possible. You probably won't hit a great shot at first and the shots should be lower, but it will ingrain the way your right side should be at impact position (or at least it helped me with it). After my lesson this morning, I spent another hour hitting balls and the difference really was apparent.

From my experience, the hardest part of getting yourself in the ideal impact position is realizing how your body needs to be positioned in order to make your hands not do the work for you.

[majorchamp]

Same issue I have. Check out my swing thread for my improvements with some help from my PGA instructor.

can you explain a bit more by what you mean "shaft as close to the ground as possible"...do you mean the butt of the club, or the club parallel to the ground?

[chrisronline]

The shaft as close to the ground with the shaft being parallel to the ground. Obviously, you won't actually accomplish this, but it will help you feel how your right side should move in order to hit the ball since your hands will not help you reach the ball if you are focusing on getting that shaft to the ground. It will feel very strange at first!

[Mexicanleprican]

I'm new to golf terminology so I am not sure if I am responding correctly. THe two things I do to ensure I have proper downswing is A start with my hips and be supinating my left wrist (the wrist should point toward the target, well ahead of the hand and club) as soon as my arms get involved. I know when I do those two things, I feel like I am getting better club speed and my shot is always a good one.

[majorchamp]

Hey guys,

So I got creative tonight and decided to combine 2 drills. One I came up with, and the other was Andrew Rice's impact position drill using an exercise ball I am going to give this lag drill a whirl for the next 2 weeks, maybe 10 minutes per day and see how it goes. It REALLY works your arms..I recommend trying it Here is my description on the youtube video:

I have struggled for years with a lack of lag in my downswing. I have never put a ton of effort into trying to correct it either...that is until this evening. There are dozens of drills to assist with lag..and even tools you can purchase for the sole purpose of improving lag. Some consist of simply holding a golf club, creating the angle, and focusing on holding that angle on the downswing. That is fine..but I knew for myself I needed a setup that would force me into the position, but one I could use to re-create the muscle memory necessary. I decided to do something simple...use an elastic band attached to my doorframe, then attach the other end to my golf club and after some tweaking finding the right amount of "give" in the elastic band and distance my club would be from the wall. Basically I am forcing my arms and body to pull that club down versus the normal procedure of casting or losing the lag. After 30 seconds of this...my arms were sore and I was really feeling the muscle burn from it, so I knew it was working. My goal is to do this for 5-10 minutes each day for the next 2 weeks and see how it affects my swing. What promoted me using this method versus other methods was seeing players like Tiger Woods or Sergio Garcia create a tremendous amount of lag. I am not willing to lay down and accept certain people have a gift and others don't. In my case, I have years upon years of bad form on my downswing that I need to breakdown and fix, and I hope this drill is it. I combined this drill with Andrew Rice's impact position because I figured the moves were SO connected, I might as well get my body feeling what a deep lag and moving of the hips is supposed to feel like. Note - Use an old golf club. Though I don't think the club shaft would warp/bend from this drill..its always possible especially with weeks or months of use. I had an old sand wedge I won't ever use again, so that is what I am using in the video.

[Taggsy]

That's an interesting exercise, but I wouldn't be surprised if it produced the opposite intended effect and you end up casting the club.
The reason being, you're creating artificial resistance at the start of your downswing. This in turn will cause your wrists to fight against that resistance in order to maintain its shape (if you weren't fighting against this resistance, your left wrist would cup and the right wrist straighten).

If you practice this often enough and commit it to muscle memory, you're simply ingraining the feeling of fighting against the lag at the top of the swing, i.e. uncocking your wrists at the start of the downswing and throwing away the lag.
I'd only suggest using the exercise to help you get an idea of what the lag should feel like, and not to actually improve your lag.

Back to the OP's question of what to think / feel when trying to produce lag...
Assuming you have a "traditional" swing and by lag you mean maintaining cocked wrists until the last minute, then you can use what's known as the Third Pressure Point to gauge how much lag you have during the downswing and into impact.

Assuming you're right handed, where the club grip touches the right index finger, you'll feel resistance here so long as your wrists are cocked and lagged on the downswing. When you feel the pressure there lessen, it's because you're uncocking the wrists and releasing the lag.
The trick then is to maintain, or try to increase, that pressure all the way down into impact.


On a separate note, with your handicap, and the fact you concentrate on timing to make your swing work, I wouldn't recommend trying to increase your lag. The reason being, the longer you keep your wrists cocked on the downswing, the quicker you need to rotate your wrists through impact to square the club. This will add another timing-dependent variable to your swing and could make your ball flight unpredictable.

[majorchamp]

That's an interesting exercise, but I wouldn't be surprised if it produced the opposite intended effect and you end up casting the club.

Interesting thoughts.... I definitely see what you mean. So with my swing...there just isn't much lag...so trying to gain even a little bit will be beneficial. Regarding the opposite effect...the drill makes my wrists and forearms burn. Why do they burn? Because they are weak. The drill not only gives me an idea of what lag should feel like (even if its extreme), but is building up muscle memory and simply making me gain strength is my wrists and forearms, something all good golfers have. Even though I have golfed for 22 years, played HS and college tournament golf, and at one point in my life had "ok" lag, in my honest opinion I think because I have never created that angle well enough my strength and muscle memory has just never been developed...whether its from bad habits, was never trained properly, or whatever.

So the drill does have the positive effect of actually working those muscles that I rarely use. Regarding your last comment about my handicap, etc... I think the opposite. I think I am a good enough player that when presented with a modification of my swing, I can work with it and make it work even better. The players on tour who have great lag...they have it because they have strong wrists. Hell, all good players tend to have strong wrists and forearms. But I will definitely keep a close eye out if I start doing the opposite...thanks for the comment.

[majorchamp]

btw - I am the OP :)

[Taggsy]

btw - I am the OP :)

Lol that'll teach me to read the posts properly.

Keep us updated with how the new drill works out for you.

[iacas]

I agree with what Taggsy said.

Also, you're not pushing linearly into the ball against the door frame, you're spinning. Your head already starts tipping back in the video you posted.

I already told you (I think): get your arms down faster, get your hips more linear. You'll have more lag (you'll need to in order to hit the ball) doing both of those things. You lack lag because your body knows it needs to get the club down to the ground sooner.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

I am a low handicapper, but lag is not something my swing has generally have had. I think the quality of my shots, etc.. have been more about timing...but lag is something I need to strive for because I believe I tend to flip through the ball versus hitting truly down on it and creating that great impact position.

I watched your swings from the "300 yard video" thread, and in my opinion (which is not all that valuable unless others corroborate), I think your slight-to-moderate overswing may be hurting your ability to lag the club. At the top, when you've overswung, you have to cast the club a little just to get the downswing started. With a more controlled backswing, the club doesn't have to move until its proper place in the timing of the swing, which in my view is where lag really comes from.

I believe if you take a shorter backswing, and make sure you have a timing sequence where your hip bump starts the swing, followed by body rotation, followed by arm swing, then you will naturally have lag in your wrists, due to the "whipping" motion that the proper timing sequence will create. -Andrew

[majorchamp]

I watched your swings from the "300 yard video" thread, and in my opinion (which is not all that valuable unless others corroborate), I think your slight-to-moderate overswing may be hurting your ability to lag the club. At the top, when you've overswung, you have to cast the club a little just to get the downswing started. With a more controlled backswing, the club doesn't have to move until its proper place in the timing of the swing, which in my view is where lag really comes from.

Hi Andrew...very interesting. I have tried working on shortening my swing and I 100% agree I overswing..kind of always have. Bad habits are difficult to break...problem is sometimes it feels like I don't make a big enough shoulder turn when keeping my swing short.

but with that said..how do some players overswing big time yet have no problem dropping their hands into the lag position. I do feel like my lack of lag is also promoted because of where/how I start my downswing. Any good drills of working on when the start of the downswing should begin?

[majorchamp]

I agree with what Taggsy said.

Interesting. I will work on being more linear. Well if you agree that this drill will make me cast versus create more lag...what is to say about similar drills where they make you swing next to a wall to promote the same movement, etc...?

I guess I just don't see someone at my handicap and skill level falling into a trap of casting because I am doing an exercise that ultimately will make my wrists/forearms stronger, which will allow me to hold that angle better. I guess time will tell. Also, I don't cast the club IMO, I simply don't hold onto the lag well as the downswing progresses...I think there is a difference. Regarding the spinning hips, when I watch the video I guess it looks like the right move to me..because I am leaning into the ball (which is resisting my movement) and then turning. Regarding my head..are you saying you want my head to either remain still or move forward with being linear, versus going down. The head dipping I think is just a result of forcing my hands down....I think.

[Fatphil]

I think of lag as two angles...1) the angle formed by hinging your wrists upward and 2) the hinge formed on the back of your right wrist. Both angles need to me maintained as long as possible. How far they hinge is a function of flexibility in your hands. (IE Sergio).

In that drill the rubber band thingy for sure is working the up/down angle however it appears to have the opposite effect on the back of your right hand. It is forcing the back of your rt wrist to straighten and the face to open.

Also I recommend you close the drapes while doing that drill.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

Hi Andrew...very interesting. I have tried working on shortening my swing and I 100% agree I overswing..kind of always have. Bad habits are difficult to break...problem is sometimes it feels like I don't make a big enough shoulder turn when keeping my swing short.

Yeah, that's the challenge when fixing an overswing; you have to decrease the backswing in the arms and wrists without decreasing it in the shoulders. I'm working on that myself, and something that seems to be helping me is keeping my arms more connected with my torso in the backswing, and thinking about keeping my hands passive. If I do those things, I have to make a full shoulder turn in order to get the club back.

but with that said..how do some players overswing big time yet have no problem dropping their hands into the lag position.

Extraordinary hand coordination? I don't really know. But what I do believe, is that for overswingers, shortening the backswing as a first step, and then learning how to swing the club quickly despite the short backswing as a second step, will encourage development of good timing to make sure the "whip" (which naturally incorporates lag) happens right.

I do feel like my lack of lag is also promoted because of where/how I start my downswing. Any good drills of working on when the start of the downswing should begin?

I'm no pro. The internet, a few lessons with PGA pros, and a decent understanding of body mechanics have taught me a little bit about how a swing is supposed to work, but about drills and training techniques I really don't have the first clue.

-Andrew

[majorchamp]

I think of lag as two angles...1) the angle formed by hinging your wrists upward and 2) the hinge formed on the back of your right wrist. Both angles need to me maintained as long as possible. How far they hinge is a function of flexibility in your hands. (IE Sergio).

The back of my right wrist straightening I think is a function of my current swing mechanics..hence why I have a lack of lag. That video is literally the first time I was testing the drill...so with time if I can focus on bringing the butt of the club "down" and laterally sliding my hips left...I will create the correct movements. But yea when you see that club start to go the other way...its not a result of the elastic band directly, but my normal movements or habits I am trying to get away from.

Watch my swing here around the 24 second mark...I begin to let the back of my right hand release like you see in the elastic band video also..there is this guy named Stuart Appleby...I think he shot 59 recently :) but he uses elastics for golf swing drills himself...maybe not to help with lag, but to help with other angles/positions in his swing. method to the madness?